Advice for a noob that daydreams about a quant trader career.

[PinkZanny]

Hello everyone! I am an undergraduate student from Italy, and unfortunately, I have received rejections from NCSU FinMath, and I am currently waiting to hear back from Princeton MFin, UChicago FinMath, and Steven Institute of Technology MSFE (although I suspect I will also receive a rejection from SIT).

I was hopeful about my application to SIT, but unfortunately, my official transcript did not meet their requirements because it was missing the CGPA calculation. I contacted them several times but have not received a response, and my university's career office has also been unresponsive.
I am feeling discouraged, and I don't want to waste a year without studying. I don't have work experience in this field, and my grades are not great, but I have an IELTS score of 8.5 and a low GRE score. My undergraduate studies are in digital management, which is quite different from the financial industry.
I don't have the necessary mathematical skills, and I am struggling to find a way into this industry. However, I have always been fascinated by mathematics and would like to explore this field further. I am considering pursuing an online degree in mathematics or statistics from universities such as Columbia, John Hopkins, UW, WKU, UTRGV, Emporia State, or UNA (the ones that I found). I plan to study on weekends and after work so that I can pay for the tuition myself without relying on my parents.

I am seeking advice on what to do next. Should I apply to other programs, perhaps in Europe? Or should I pursue an online degree in mathematics or statistics? Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

 

[diogenescat]

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[Kianu]

Ciao Pink, studia pesante calculus e fatti dei corsi online ne trovi molti poi riapplica.

 

[PinkZanny]

I'm sorry to hear about the rejections you received from the quantitative finance programs you applied to. It can be very challenging to get accepted into these programs, especially without a strong academic background in mathematics.

Based on your message, it seems that pursuing the online graduate-level programs in mathematics or statistics that you proposed may not be the best option for you. Even if you're able to get into such a program, the coursework may be too difficult if you don't have a strong foundation in the basics of mathematics.

Instead, I recommend that you focus on building a solid foundation by enrolling in an undergraduate degree program in mathematics or a related field. This will give you the opportunity to learn the fundamentals of mathematics in a structured and supportive environment. It will also show graduate admissions committees that you have the necessary academic preparation to succeed in a more advanced program.

I understand that this may not be the answer you were hoping for, but I want to be honest with you. Pursuing a graduate program without the necessary background will only set you up for failure. It's better to take the time to build a strong foundation now than to rush into a program that may be too challenging for you.

Remember that success in this field requires hard work, persistence, and a willingness to learn. With the right preparation and approach, I'm confident that you can achieve your goals.

Best regards,

Thank you for taking the time, and thank you for your honesty. I need that.

What do you mean by undergraduate program? In Italy we have the conception of the three-year program (e.g. Bachelor) as the undergraduate one, then the upper level, two more years (Magistrale == Master's) as graduate, but the most 'academically' complete would be those with the 5 joint years. Is re-taking another 3 years of undergraduate worth it? I mean there are QF courses in Italy, that accept everyone and is of 2 years to get the 'Laurea Magistrale' which basically is the Master's degree, but let me say that I think it's really a waste of time because the preparation is really different from the one provided in other international institutions.

So, if I'm understanding your advice correctly, I would need to go for another undergraduate degree and not maybe an online mathematics/statistics Master's? In the past two months I discussed about it with two courses coordinators of two different online programs, I think Emporia State and Texas A&M, which seem to be eager to get me to enroll, I also have been given the preparatory 'checklist' that is sent to students at Texas A&M, and for what I've seen, I've covered it all already in the courses that I took, it's just that I don't know if after 2 years it will be too late for me to apply again for a MSFE or FinMath program, since it would mean that, if everything goes well, I would start looking for a job at 26 years old, is that not too late?

Thank you again, this is really helpful. I hope you'll have a great day!

 

[PinkZanny]

Ciao Pink, studia pesante calculus e fatti dei corsi online ne trovi molti poi riapplica.

Italiano! Ciao, grazie per la risposta, intendi corsi online tipo Udemy? Non saprei, non avrei delle certificazioni o qualcosa che attesta che io abbia effettivamente un determinato livello, giusto? Non facendo esami intendo

 

[diogenescat]

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[PinkZanny]

So, basically I won't become a quant, even if I put all the effort towards this goal?

That's really a cold shower... I obviously expected this path to be extremely difficult, however I've always thought that I could make it.
I understand what you are saying, and I partially agree with you, I think the part of me that disagrees is the delusional one that thinks that I could switch at this point.

So, correct me if I'm wrong, in your opinion I have 0 chances of getting into this industry in the next 5 years? I really, really want to pursue this direction because I feel out of my place right now. Is there any realistic and achievable path that leads towards my objective?

Thank you again, and sorry for bothering with the questions.

 

[diogenescat]

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[CrossGamma]

I agree with @diogenescat advice. Your current degree lacks the quantitative foundations and the few mathematics and statistics courses it has seem to soft. Even if you get accepted by an MFE program, you are not setting yourself up for success.

You write that your goal is to be a quant trader (vs. researcher). Then you do not need an MFE or even a masters degree, both are certainly a plus. You do need a very strong quantitative background though. I work for one of the big options trading firms and the vast majority our graduate traders have a background in STEM with about 2/3-rd having a masters degree. This also varies a bit by region and whether candidates are local vs. international. Masters degrees are often a stepping stone for internal students. They also serve as a signal / pre-filter for internal recruiters in that trading firms are looking to mostly hire from the higher ranked / most selective programs. I.e. getting into a lower ranked program after your current undergraduate will not make you competitive for these roles after.

If you are set on changing your career path, then I would recommend taking a second undergraduate degree after your current one. You will need a very high GPA to be competitive directly out of undergraduate. I am not super familiar with the Italian system but almost every Italian resume I see on my desk has 110/110 points.

 

[PinkZanny]

I understand the yearning for "more" that you're feeling at your age, because I experienced it too. At that time, I made the mistake of believing that sheer determination and hard work would bring me everything I wanted. However, this was like trying to dig a pit with bare hands, which was not only aimless but also stupid. Looking back, I could have taken a step back and learned to use a shovel.

The protective bubble we create for ourselves often ends up hurting us the most, and I believe the anxiety and distress you're feeling lately may be a sign that it's about to burst.

It's important to remember that not everything that appears shiny is worth pursuing. For every successful quant at Citadel, there are hundreds of others trying to fix the Excel sheet of a trader who earns more money and prestige than they do. If you're genuine in your intention, you should start from scratch. You should aim for mastery and competency. Otherwise, you'll end up like a child who one time wants to be a king, another a general, but in the end, is nothing at all.

I want to reiterate my suggestion that you consider a more traditional path by aiming for high grades in a Business Master and applying to a business school. This will provide you with a solid foundation and the necessary skills to succeed in the business world.

I would like to be able to like multiple times this reply, because I never experienced such availability and professionalism when someone helped me, so really thank you. What if I pursued a path to become an investment banker?

So roughly staying in my 'place', at high school I studied administration, finance, and marketing, undegrad you already know what I've done, would IB be the way? I'd still like to study, obviously I need it, but also want to study.

 

[PinkZanny]

I agree with @diogenescat advice. Your current degree lacks the quantitative foundations and the few mathematics and statistics courses it has seem to soft. Even if you get accepted by an MFE program, you are not setting yourself up for success.

You write that your goal is to be a quant trader (vs. researcher). Then you do not need an MFE or even a masters degree, both are certainly a plus. You do need a very strong quantitative background though. I work for one of the big options trading firms and the vast majority our graduate traders have a background in STEM with about 2/3-rd having a masters degree. This also varies a bit by region and whether candidates are local vs. international. Masters degrees are often a stepping stone for internal students. They also serve as a signal / pre-filter for internal recruiters in that trading firms are looking to mostly hire from the higher ranked / most selective programs. I.e. getting into a lower ranked program after your current undergraduate will not make you competitive for these roles after.

If you are set on changing your career path, then I would recommend taking a second undergraduate degree after your current one. You will need a very high GPA to be competitive directly out of undergraduate. I am not super familiar with the Italian system but almost every Italian resume I see on my desk has 110/110 points.

Thank you for sharing your experience!

I can say that just by looking at what you wrote, I will never be able to get a job like that. My GPA, depending on my 'thesis discussion', will be 100~105/110. As I suggested earlier, would it be better for me to try to become an IB? I think the US is out of reach though.

I would try to find programs that are suitable for me and that allow me to pursue this career, would it be such a disaster like for the quant field?

 

[CrossGamma]

Thank you for sharing your experience!

I can say that just by looking at what you wrote, I will never be able to get a job like that. My GPA, depending on my 'thesis discussion', will be 100~105/110. As I suggested earlier, would it be better for me to try to become an IB? I think the US is out of reach though.

I would try to find programs that are suitable for me and that allow me to pursue this career, would it be such a disaster like for the quant field?

I have no insights into the IB industry at all. It's completely different world from trading in terms of skills, mindsets of people, corporate culture, type of work, hours, ... Almost no person I am working with would be thriving in an IB environment, even though they might have the skills to do so. This is not to say that it isn't a great career for many people. You considering both at the same time suggests to me you're not really clear on what at least one of the two entails. I would recommend you try to get an IB internship over the summer to see if it's something you'd enjoy. Most spots for this year with the big firms will unfortunately probably be filled by now.

 

[PinkZanny]

I have no insights into the IB industry at all. It's completely different world from trading in terms of skills, mindsets of people, corporate culture, type of work, hours, ... Almost no person I am working with would be thriving in an IB environment, even though they might have the skills to do so. This is not to say that it isn't a great career for many people. You considering both at the same time suggests to me you're not really clear on what at least one of the two entails. I would suggest to try to get an IB internship over the summer to see if it's something you'd enjoy. Most spots for this year with the big firms will unfortunately probably be filled by now.

Yes you are most definitely right, I don't know exactly what being a trader or an IB is, because I don't know anyone nor I've never worked in a similar environment.

That said, I could see myself working in a trading floor, but I really don't know where to start. Following the advice given by @diogenescat, I'd start by studying, as it is the most sensible thing to do, however I really don't know what to study since it seems to me that program=>career. I'm interested in the generality of the financial field, and I feel lost between the multiple types of traders and professional figures that are present.

If you have any advice on what programs should one, that doesn't know much about the 'firm structure' but has some knowledge about markets and derivatives, look at, it would be really helpful for me to explore further.

Thank you for taking the time, I really appreciate it

 

[diogenescat]

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