applying to MFE out of undergrad?

[jeff]

Hey,

I'm an undergrad right now set to graduate in Dec09 (I'm staying one semester past four years because I am a dual degree student here so it takes a bit longer). I am extremely interested in quant finance, but have pretty much been trolling the hell out of admissions profiles for all the top MFE programs and most of them actually seem sort of terrifying: "Math PhDs from Beijing University," "3.7 gpa in computer science from Brown undergrad plus a Masters," and not many people at all seeming to apply directly out of undergrad.

It seems like no one in this forum is all that willing to give opinions on admissions chances based on applicants' profiles, but can anyone tell me if I have a shot like essentially anywhere, or if you think it would be wiser for me to get some work in the industry for a few years as opposed to applying directly out of undergrad?

Profile
UPenn Class of 2009
-Dual Degree: BS Wharton Finance, BAS Computer Science at Penn Engineering, Minor in Math
-GPA: will probably settle around a 3.3 or so (not exactly "stellar", and has pretty much been going straight down since freshman year which is what scares the hell out of me in terms of my chances anywhere. I know downward gpa trends don't look good at all, and this semester has actually been a total catastrophe in terms of grades. Will try to pull it back up next semester, but it won't be easy).
-Haven't taken the GRE yet. Pretty sure I'll butcher the verbal, but reasonably confident I can probably get 780+ on the quant if I study enough.
-Internship last summer at Allstate Investments in Chicago as a quant on the Structured Finance desk, returning this summer as an analyst in the Quantitative Portfolio Management Group for 12 weeks.
-Engineering Senior Design Project: Writing a VBA program that calculates value-at-risk for diversified portfolios, using generalized pareto distributions, copulas, and a monte carlo simulation.

Considering that I literally haven't seen a single person apply directly out of undergrad and get in essentially with anything lower than a 3.7, do you think I should try to work for a few years before applying? If the answer is "you might as well just apply anyway and see what happens," I'm kind of reluctant to do this because undergrad admissions pretty much took over my life for a long time in HS, and admissions processes seem time consuming and expensive for application fees and I would only be down for all this if I'm sure I actually have a legitimate chance to get in somewhere...

Thanks for any advice!

 

[herron]

Why do you need an MFE?

Why? Isn't an MFE for career-switchers who want to get intro finance knowledge (you have) and integrated math/finance/comp sci knowledge (you also have). Or for those who want to trade up their school's brand name to a known quantity for hiring managers or get career services. I think UPenn certainly satisfies both of these.

Why not get a PhD? You're young and went to a good school with a rigorous major. Given the cost of the MFE and scholarship/stipend for the PhD, I imagine it would be break even at 10 years and you'd have a lot more options later in life. Given that the placement out of the quality MFE programs is probably 60-70% for the class of 2008 from good programs like Baruch and CMU, the risk doesn't seem so big.

If you apply, the only sticking point is the 3.3. I don't know if UPenn has grade inflation or a 5.0 scale (no offense), but getting in is still impressive. I went cross-town from Harvard and there were always snickers about the 15 point scale. If you can beat the average GRE composite and quant, I think you have a good shot. Remember, these schools are still businesses. I imagine you're pretty placeable from UPenn.

 

[jeff]

re

I mean I know at this point that I want to do something in quant finance but the more reading I do on it the more math there seems to exist that I've never seen before... I've done calculus through diff eq and lin alg + two semesters of engineering probability and stat + a few computer science-related math courses, but I haven't had much exposure to stochastic processes and a lot of the more advanced stat stuff that seems pretty necessary...

It seems like if I want to have a solid career in this it would make sense to get as much education as needed to have a good "starting foundation" and whatnot, and a one year masters where you essentially learn specifically "the stuff you need to be a successful quant" sounds valuable... The 3.3 is the main "sticking point" I'm worried about also. It's on a 4.0 scale, and there is tremendous grade-inflation at Penn, but only in liberal arts courses... My understanding is the average in Wharton is about a 3.2 or so and the average in Penn Engineering is like a 2.8 [although when I heard these numbers I didn't trust them and thought they sounded a bit on the low side]

As for the PhD it occurred to me but admissions seem even more ridiculous than for masters programs and they seem focused towards people interested in research careers in academia which I have pretty much no interest in at all...

 

[atreides]

Maybe a masters in a quantitative major (applied math, IE, OR, computational math, numerical methods,... etc) might suffice. It would probably take 1.5 to 2 yrs , and help you build a lot of mathematical maturity. Maybe you can one more year of work experience too.

Plotting a 2.5 to 3 year strategy to get into a top MFE program from undergrad doesn't seem too bad. Personally, I wouldn't apply for anything I know I don't have a dog's chance of getting (except the lottery of course)...but hey that's just me. Maybe folks that went straight from undergrad can offer more advise.

On the flip side though, I 'm pretty sure getting into any of these top MFE programs is the easy part, the hard part will be staying in and finishing strong and of course finding a job.

So, strategize, build eminence and go for it.

 

[jeff]

Personally, I wouldn't apply for anything I know I don't have a dog's chance of getting...but hey that's just me.

That's kinda like my main question, though...

In terms of undergraduate admissions no one affiliated with universities agreed to assess applicants' chances of getting in before applying either, but it was still pretty much kind of well-known by people anyway that when you graduate from high school, it's generally appropriate to apply for a bachelors degree, and if you have solid grades/SAT/extracurriculars you probably have a solid shot at getting in somewhere good... For MFE programs, student profiles don't seem to really make it all that clear who the programs are looking for or how they gauge in admissions whether or not you're one of them, so as far as "an undergraduate studying finance/compsci/math and interested in quant finance but not exactly 'class valedictorian,' but still has solid GRE scores and quant internships, how does a person like that stack up against 10 different Chinese guys with PhDs in god knows what" I feel like I'm sort of flying blind here...

On Herron's point of: "Why would you want to do this? Isn't an MFE for career-switchers who want to get intro finance knowledge (you have) and integrated math/finance/comp sci knowledge (you also have)?" I don't really know, that's what i'm trying to figure out... I'm not even looking for "chance assessments based on my credentials," just if anything "a general perspective from someone who knows how the system works of whether or not these programs are even geared towards undergrads with credentials similar to mine, or if 28 year old physics phds looking to switch careers would have any kind of 'natural advantage in the process because the programs are more aimed towards them anyway [if this is even true]..."

I feel like the main issue is that there seem to be "a lot of different types of apples competing with a lot of different types of oranges, with no one really knowing if the programs are geared towards apples or oranges, or how one is stacked up against the other in the process"...

 

[LT Nguyen]

Don't be discouraged, you have a really good background, with exposure to all of the relevant fields. I would say that you should take a class in calculus-based probability, and if you have already done so, take stochastic processes. Why graduate in December? Try to stay an extra semester to take more math/stat classes. The most important requirement for these programs is mathematics, and I can assure you that you can gain working knowledge in probability-stochastic processes/calculus in 1 year, comfortably. Once you're done with that, you will be a very attractive candidate. You say that you minor in mathematics, so all of this would be doable, I think.

My situation was very similar to you, except that you at this moment certainly know more computer science and finance than I did. Yet I got into the top programs. My biggest strength was math, and I proved that to them with the GRE subject test in math. Then I showed them that I was willing to learn all the necessary probability theory and C++ and finance before enrollment. Next I focused on the letters of recommendation.

So believe me, if you spend enough time to learn probability and stochastic calculus this summer and next year, it would be surprising if you don't get in somewhere.