Be wary

[yatici]

As a recent graduate from a reputable MFE program, I find it in my good conscience to help people to make decision before being misguided by all FE program ambiguities. I had interactions with many graduates from reputable programs, seen the job market, interviews and the salaries (and drama I guess). Luckily got a job not so quanty at a quant shop after graduating. Be vary and advised as some of these programs can actually significantly reduce your value.

1) I see lots of people come to these programs with the attitude claiming they don't like math/statistics or programming (or never coded before), that's why they wanted to move to finance. These programs focus solely on advanced math and programming if this is your reasoning don't even apply. You are wasting your money/time and effort. Also it doesn't make sense when you go to an interview with a master's degree in FE and can't even do basic probability. I also see tons of people who believe 6 figure jobs are an entitlement after these programs too. Nobody is going to pay you that unless you are some kind of exceptional case or have some real quant experience. I see people finishing these programs within top 5 in the class and not be able to find any real quant work or be happy with your regular 70K Master's salary.

2)The admission numbers and number of programs are exponentially increasing, but the number of job openings are shrinking. No need to explain that any further. Most of the programs lie about their employment/internship and salary rates. Always contact alumni or graduating seniors for information as they are more likely to tell you the truth. A good chunk of these school look at these programs as income to their treasury as the demand is high.

3) Most of the high level quant jobs are filled by 3rd party recruiters. These people have no idea what you learn or know, they are sales people. So they say ok everybody in these positions have a PhD so I won't waste time on a candidate with no PhD. At the same time if you are going to pay the same salary why bother hire the MS when the PhD is available. There are also your crazy egotistical people in the field who simply refuse to work with people without PhDs. (Yes they exist and working with them sucks anyway)

4) America is recovering from a recession. If you are an international student it is highly possible that you won't find a job in US given H1-B quotas are at an all time low. Most applications state they don't consider candidates with F1 visas. There are a ton of graduates doing internships and scared they will have to go back to their countries as they didn't get sponsored for H1Bs or already went back. If the ultimate goal is to get a job in the US then go do an MS in Computer science or some other Technical/Engineering field.

5) Most of the big banks care more about your label then your merit. A history undergrad from Harvard is more likely to get the junior quant role at a big bank then an MS from a non-ivy league school. Check the prestige of your school. I know a few crappy programs at A schools but students get hired better than a great program at a B+ school.

6) Some of the best MFE programs like Berkeley, Columbia and Cornell have connection with the banks and the banks come to recruit from these programs. Majority of the other programs don't. Make sure the program you plan on going have some professional connection.Check campus recruiting for companies that come to your school and reach out. If you are attending NYU and there is a career event at Columbia, go! Even if it says Columbia students only find a way in and go. (school names just for example)

7) Finally luck/connections are big factors! I was talking to a small FX quant shop CEO and the guy admitted for 3 opening he posted he got about 3000 applications. 80% was unqualified for his point of view. Still 600 qualified people for 3 positions? He said he interviewed 200 people for first round. And this a fairly new and small shop. At the same time there are a ton of people who gets recommended by their family friend who works at a certain company and get called in for interviews. Bottom line, nobody wants to go through 3000 resumes if a trusted connection says he got someone good for the position.

I hope all of you succeed and get the job you want, life you want to live and the salary you desire. My intention is not bad mouth programs but instead provide a reality check to young and ambitious people. World is a messed up place, and if you are looking at it with some pink glasses on or got misguided by some school web page it is time to have the "red pill".

 

[Daniel Duffy]

I see lots of people come to these programs with the attitude claiming they don't like math/statistics or programming (or never coded before).

Use pencil and paper?


edit: meaning they think they can survive with attitude? not anymore IMO.

 

[yatici]

Me? Nah. I guess the correct grammar would be ..attitude with a dislike towards..? Getting the idea across is the goal I guess. Your book is not too shabby btw. I like Scott Meyer's book too. Anyway no need to get off topic.

 

[bigbadwolf]

Most of the programs lie about their employment/internship and salary rates.

Same as the law schools.

 

[Daniel Duffy]

Me? Nah. I guess the correct grammar would be ..attitude with a dislike towards..? Getting the idea across is the goal I guess. Your book is not too shabby btw. I like Scott Meyer's book too. Anyway no need to get off topic.

No, no offence intended. it was not a criticism of your writing style.

I was meaning tha some people think they are too good to do maths and computers, so they do it on paper. So, these days quants' skill need to be ++.

 

[yatici]

Coding is one of the most fun things in the world when you get a hang of it. No coding skills = no job at the market these days. Learn your C++ people! haha

 

[Andy Nguyen]

@yatici Not sure if you mean to title "Be wary" as in skeptical or "Be vary" as in be different?

 

[yatici]

I did. Thaks haha!

 

[CN Chen]

Very thoughtful and well written post @yatici. I really feel anyone considering doing MFE programs or currently in the programs should read it.

 

[C S]

Some good advice but over-the-top.

One thing not considered is that most MFE candidates are clueless when it comes to things like interviewing skills or presenting yourself properly (whether in networking or applying). As yatici said, these programs focus on technical skills and being in the "top 5" in such a program doesn't mean you have good soft skills. I think when you take this into account, the odds aren't as bad as they may seem initially.

Many recruiters care a lot about the PhD, but it really doesn't seem to matter very much when you are directly applying to the big banks. I've seen all kinds of people get interviews and them not making it through had more to do with their inability to answer technical questions than not having a PhD. Some recruiters are former quants and do know the business quite well. These don't generally spam you but are careful before taking you on.

Despite yatici's claim that a history major from Harvard has a better chance of getting a junior quant role at a big bank than a masters student from a non-Ivy, I don't see this at all. I'd say it's the opposite. I do agree that brand is important, but the history major type seems to end up either in operations somewhere or in sales. For any real quant job at a bank, you have to be able to answer very challenging technical questions, and I don't see a typical history major (from an Ivy or elsewhere) able to do that. And non-Ivy quants without PhDs seem plentiful enough at the bulge brackets. Obviously they are very smart, but that's a necessary condition no matter what school you come from.

 

[diegosanaz]

What would be better in your opinion? An MA in Statistics in Harvard or Columbia or an MFE in a lower ranked school?

 

[Ken Abbott]

What would be better in your opinion? An MA in Statistics in Harvard or Columbia or an MFE in a lower ranked school?

It depends. An MS (is there such a thing as an MA in statistics?) might imply a genuine interest in the subject matter. Many people assume that those seeking an MFE are just looking to make a quick buck. Fortunately, this usually becomes painfully obvious in the interview process when the gold diggers display little knowledge of or interest in the field beyond a few narrow subject areas. I have an MS in statistics and it was in a "fat-free" program - there were no bs courses involved. It was perhaps one of the smartest decisions I ever made. Of course that was 20 years ago and that program (NYU/Stern MS in Statistics and OR) doesn't exist anymore. It provided an excellent baseline and has allowed me to go toe-to-to with PhDs.

As someone who screens quant resumes on a regular basis, I can say that name counts for something, but most firms consider (and hire) candidates from many schools. Some of our most successful people in risk management don't have "marquee" degrees. Yet somehow, they have all the skills (and then some) with half the attitude.

 

[Dataminer]

It depends. An MS (is there such a thing as an MA in statistics?) might imply a genuine interest in the subject matter. Many people assume that those seeking an MFE are just looking to make a quick buck. Fortunately, this usually becomes painfully obvious in the interview process when the gold diggers display little knowledge of or interest in the field beyond a few narrow subject areas. I have an MS in statistics and it was in a "fat-free" program - there were no bs courses involved. It was perhaps one of the smartest decisions I ever made. Of course that was 20 years ago and that program (NYU/Stern MS in Statistics and OR) doesn't exist anymore. It provided an excellent baseline and has allowed me to go toe-to-to with PhDs.

As someone who screens quant resumes on a regular basis, I can say that name counts for something, but most firms consider (and hire) candidates from many schools. Some of our most successful people in risk management don't have "marquee" degrees. Yet somehow, they have all the skills (and then some) with half the attitude.

the stat program at Columbia is MA.

http://www.stat.columbia.edu/program/ma-statistics

Also, do you think it's an overkill for someone with Ms in Statistics and OR, to do MFE? I'm mainly interested in MFE for their career services in case I can't find jobs that I want and to learn more about math finance people use.

 

[diegosanaz]

Thank you @Ken Abbott for your insight . I will take it into consideration.

Right now I am dwelling with a decision because, given my previous employer advice, I applied to the Columbia Stats program and last week I got admitted. At BU I believe to be receiving a top quality education, but sometimes I fear how snobish employers can be (besides, one of my best interests since undergrad has been statistics).

It is a hard decision that I will be taking sometime this week. Thanks again for your insight.

 

[C S]

Thank you @Ken Abbott for your insight . I will take it into consideration.

Right now I am dwelling with a decision because, given my previous employer advice, I applied to the Columbia Stats program and last week I got admitted. At BU I believe to be receiving a top quality education, but sometimes I fear how snobish employers can be (besides, one of my best interests since undergrad has been statistics).

It is a hard decision that I will be taking sometime this week. Thanks again for your insight.

This is somewhat related to what's been mentioned about how MFEs are perceived versus MSes. I don't know anything about BU's MFE program, so take what I say with a grain of salt. However, I have an idea what the primary complaints are about from several of the well-respected programs.

I'd be careful about assuming the quality of education you receive from BU MFE being the same as what you would get in one of the regular degree programs. The quality of education is highly correlated with the abilities and motivations of your fellow students. Not only does it affect the atmosphere of learning, but it can greatly impact how professors perceive and treat students.

 

[IntoDarkness]

Thank you @Ken Abbott for your insight . I will take it into consideration.

Right now I am dwelling with a decision because, given my previous employer advice, I applied to the Columbia Stats program and last week I got admitted. At BU I believe to be receiving a top quality education, but sometimes I fear how snobish employers can be (besides, one of my best interests since undergrad has been statistics).

It is a hard decision that I will be taking sometime this week. Thanks again for your insight.

its mid november. u should have done many recruitings already and figured out whether u really received any "quality education (mainly career services besides the standard quant lectures)"

 

[shadefaliam]

the stat program at Columbia is MA.

http://www.stat.columbia.edu/program/ma-statistics

Also, do you think it's an overkill for someone with Ms in Statistics and OR, to do MFE? I'm mainly interested in MFE for their career services in case I can't find jobs that I want and to learn more about math finance people use.

In my opinion, it depends on the kind of Stats/OR you have. If it has been a very theoretically inclined Stats, then doing an additional MFE might not be an overkill. However, if you have studied Stats or OR at a place like Columbia where there is always an inherent bias towards financial applications in their quantitative classes, then you should rethink your decision to pursue a MFE.

 

[Dataminer]

In my opinion, it depends on the kind of Stats/OR you have. If it has been a very theoretically inclined Stats, then doing an additional MFE might not be an overkill. However, if you have studied Stats or OR at a place like Columbia where there is always an inherent bias towards financial applications in their quantitative classes, then you should rethink your decision to pursue a MFE.

Thanks for the input, the courses I've taken are quite general, and I haven't seen financial application of stat other than time series and little bit on risk. OR courses I've taken are all theoretical ( Monte Carlo, Stochastic process etc) and PHD level programming courses so that's why I'm thinking about MFE and also it would be great to learn more about finance and coding. Hopefully i'll get into some programs :D.