best way to bone up on academic math creds?

[JeffT]

Hello-- I am 24 and am really interested in pursuing an MFE, but have a pretty strong hunch that in order to be competitive for top schools I'm going to need to strenghten my math credentials pretty substantially. I finished undergrad two years ago and you could say I sort of blew it towards the end... I went to an Ivy and spent five years getting dual bachelors degrees in finance and computer science, I finished my first two years with about a 3.6 or so (including A's in Calc2 and Calc3) but then began to slack off significantly from that point on to the extent that by the end of it I was down to a 3.1 (you can do the math on how bad the last 3 years of GPA had to be for my cumulative to drop that significantly)... I also took a number of upper-level math electives-- Advanced Linear Algebra (I got a D), Stochastic Calculus (got a D), Time Series Analysis (actually pulled a B+ in that one), and a calculus-based stat course (had to withdraw because by the time I stopped putting off doing the homework assignments I realized it was too late to salvage).

I still managed to get an internship and then full-time offer as a quant in the risk management group of a corporate fixed income manager in Chicago, have been doing a pretty good job I think (I got promoted a few months ago), and am really loving the work (I'm building a Matlab process right now to implement the Black model for Cap/Floor valuation and am feeling like it's practically my calling in life to be doing this stuff) but know that to move up or to get a better job I'm going to need some kind of graduate degree. I took a sample Math GRE and got a 790 on it, am halfway through the CFA and FRM exam processes which I suppose can't look bad on an application, am sure I could get really solid recommendations from the people I work with (including the head of my group who I think some of these schools may have actually heard of because he's known as a pretty "prominent quant" and he's a PhD who apparently lectures at academic conferences), but my last few years of school seem pretty tremendously problematic. On all the programs' websites they go out of their way to specify "stellar undergraduate math background and recs from math professors required." As already discussed, my math grades were bad to the extent of embarassing and I'm also pretty sure that no math professor at Penn even remembers who the hell I am to write me a recommendation (or even knew who I was when I was in their class for that matter).

Long story short I'm pretty confident with all of my credentials except for the ones that actually seem to matter... It occurred to me to try to find calc/stat courses to take somewhere and do well to try to show that "I've turned things around and despite blowing things in my last few years of school I've since retaken the stuff that I'd bombed and am now on solid ground" but I can't find any legit upper-level math courses online (coursera doesn't seem to get sufficiently advanced, and the new fancy MIT thing doesn't even seem to offer calc or stat at all yet). Are there solid online courses to take anywhere, and would taking online courses even come off as sufficiently legitimate on an application? If not, should I consider trying to get a masters somewhere in pure math before applying for an MFE (which would be a pretty tremendous drag)?

How can I make this work? It's like suddenly realizing I have to try to run a marathon after buying an Uzi and shooting myself in the leg for no particular reason, which I refuse to believe is impossible but nonetheless still find myself in some relatively strong need of friendly guidance from someone who knows how the system works...

 

[Andy Nguyen]

Probably a good idea to not get an Uzi in the first place.
You get relevant work experience going for you. I assume you are a domestic student so it's another strong plus.
That said, your math grads put you at the bottom of the pile in almost any program where you have to compete with oversea applicants.
First ask yourself why you believe MFE would move you up the ladder. Sounds to me you are doing quite well at work. Don't do it because everyone here is doing it
A safe option would be to take night courses at local community colleges and retake all the courses required. Working and take class at the same time will give you a taste of what it like doing MFE full-time.
I believe if you are persistent with your plan, you should be able to get into a top program in a year or two. Whether doing one is a good career move is for you to determine.

 

[JeffT]

Thank you for the advice on taking community college courses... I just did a quick google search and it looks like a definite possibility.

I guess at this point this would transition from an "educational advice" topic to a "career advice" topic, but as far as "whether or not an MFE is a good career move for me" goes, if I could avoid more school that would be fantastic but I was sort of becoming of the impression that I didn't really have much of a choice... At the firm I'm at right now in order to get the next promotion it's kind of well-established for quants that a graduate degree is necessary, and to go to other quant jobs literally every listing I've ever seen on quant job websites says something along the lines of "PhD most desireable, highly quantitative masters acceptable if from a top institution." I've literally never seen a single listing saying "if you only have a bachelors, that's fine." How limited would I be without an advanced degree?

 

[JeffT]

The community colleges don't seem to go up to advanced enough levels of math but it looks like Northwestern has a "continuing education night-school" kind of thing. All I really know, though, is that I'll have to take some kind of diff eq course, linear algebra, and calculus-based probability, but besides linear algebra where there's a course specifically call "Linear Algebra" it doesn't seem really self-explanatory what to take (I'm assuming "Probability and Stochastic Processes" is what I should take for "calculus-based probability") but there seem to be about 4 different diff eq courses of increasing degree of difficulty and I don't know which one would be necessary... could someone possibly take a quick glance at this page of listings and give me some direction on which courses would be best to take in preparation for application to MFE?

http://www.scs.northwestern.edu/courses/?Department=MATH

I really appreciate it

 

[adiaz_vca]

For Calc III (it might be a good idea to refresh knowledge of partial derivatives and multivavriable integration), Linear Algebra, and Calc-based probability http://www.is.lsu.edu/courselist.asp?cat=Mathematics&nid=102&pg=

For Diff Equations http://www.mathematics.jhu.edu/new/undergrad/onlinecourse-CourseListings.htm

You can also take partial differential equations, numerical analysis, and numerical analysis for pde at www.cvn.columbia.edu but these are at around usd5k per course.

I have taken multivariable calc and linear algebra at www.is.lsu.edu and the materials are good. It's self study though.

Good luck with everything.

Alex Diaz

 

[DMX]

whoa, are you saying you got 790 on a sample Math GRE for the subject GRE? Or do you mean for the math portion of the regular GRE? If the former, then that is insanely good and combined with a few community college courses, should make you competitive at most MFE programs (PhD programs even).

One thing about online courses (as opposed to classes at your local community college) is that you cannot "prove" that you can do the work due to the lack of grades.

Ultimately, as Andy suggested, you need to think about what you see yourself doing long-term and how (if any) an MFE will help you get there. FYI, from my experience most front-office quants have PhDs, while I've seen a lot of MFE folks in risk

 

[JeffT]

Update on this-- over the last year and a half while still working full-time I've been taking night courses at Northwestern towards a post-baccalaureate certificate in mathematics (Multiple Integration and Vector Calculus: B+, Linear Algebra: A, I'm doing a proof-based course in advanced Linear Algebra now that I'm probably on track to get some sort of B in, Differential Equations in the Fall that I'm pretty sure I'll get an A in), and I want to do a calculus-based probability course and it looks like Northwestern isn't offering one through School of Continuing Studies anymore, so I'm planning on taking a course online through the University of Illinois (and I know that online courses tend to look sketchy in admissions, but this one actually seems legit-- there are two 90 minute exams and a 3 hour Final that in order to get credit for, they make you go to the Chicago Public Library and pay a librarian to proctor and then mail to the university for scoring). In addition to this, I passed both levels of FRM and have managed to get up to Level III CFA... I feel like I've done pretty much everything humanly possible to try to make up for blowing my last few years at Penn, but am still trying to figure out what kind of program I'll be able to get into at this point... I was on the NYU site a few days ago looking through the resumes of their current students, and it still seems like this could be very tough.

I'm actually pretty concerned about all this because my sister's boyfriend just finished an MBA at Fordham a few months ago (he's not a quant, just a generalist finance guy), he went into $160k of debt for it, the only job he could manage to get afterwards is paying him about $60k/yr or so, and it seems to be on the verge of completely ruining their lives financially. My reasoning for wanting an MFE is that when I go onto job boards and look at the credentials required for most quant jobs, they almost invariably say something along the lines of "graduate degree in a quantitative discipline required." I'm getting increasingly alarmed at the prospect of going into ~$100k in debt for one of these programs, though, and then not being able to get a decent job afterwards. It still seems worth it if I can manage to get into a top program where post-grad placement stats seem to be solid, but if I'm not able to get into one of them, is it worth going to a second-tier program, or are those programs like lower-tier MBAs where they just saddle you with tons of debt and then you can't get a job?

At this point, do you think I'll have a shot at getting into a top-tier MFE program, and if not, are programs like Rutgers, IIT, BU, etc worth the money? And if God forbid you think the answers to both of those questions are "no," what would you suggest I do to further advance my career at this point?

Thanks for any reply.

 

[bigbadwolf]

It still seems worth it if I can manage to get into a top program where post-grad placement stats seem to be solid, but if I'm not able to get into one of them, is it worth going to a second-tier program, or are those programs like lower-tier MBAs where they just saddle you with tons of debt and then you can't get a job?

After completing a second-tier program I doubt you will get a job better than the one you have already -- and as you say, you will have accumulated some serious and non-dischargeable debt.

 

[captain]

Have you put any thought into doing the part-time program at U of Chicago? Columbia and Carnegie Mellon also offer online programs, all of which you could continue to work and minimize that debt burden/possibility of not getting a job afterwards.

 

[Jose T]

Personally I think second-tier programs are worth it under these conditions 1) a primary motive of yours is to learn (vs just for the promise of a job) and 2) you are paying a relatively discounted tuition (like in-state tuition). There is something of value of having basically any Masters in terms of how you are bucketed by HR and recruiters.

From your writings, though I would dissuade from the MFE path. To be honest, it doesn't seem like you are exceptionally good at Math (neither am I, btw, so that's not a value judgment). I could be wrong, but if you yourself do not think you are a strong math student, you should avoid the MFE because it is narrow as a credential (i.e. the people looking for MFEs are most likely looking for a certain kind of mathematical technician; it is not a managerial or upwardly mobile credential by itself).

You should reflect that you are already in a pretty sweet spot in terms of career. You have an Ivy league degree in two technical fields (CS and finance) and you are gaining sought after and prestigious experience in your day job which is also burnishing your technical skills.

I don't think you need to be obsessed with career growth at this point, but I think you should also remember that careers rarely take a linear path. You have a large amount of opportunities from your pedigree and experience alone. Try just researching careers that could leverage your current experience and education. I doubt you will find that quant is the only one.

 

[JeffT]

OK, well it looks like we've got one "do a top-tier program," one "a second-tier program wouldn't be worth it," and one "a second-tier program would be worth it, but you're too ambitious and you shouldn't even be a quant (?)" ... It looks like there's some discord here.

 

[bigbadwolf]

OK, well it looks like we've got one "do a top-tier program," one "a second-tier program wouldn't be worth it," and one "a second-tier program would be worth it, but you're too ambitious and you shouldn't even be a quant (?)" ... It looks like there's some discord here.

Opinions vary. The one who has to decide is you. One point I want to add is that second-tier programs don't do a good job of teaching either (that's part of what makes them second-tier). These programs are offered and taken in a spirit of cynicism: the universities offering them want to make a bit of easy money for a meretricious certificate, and those taking the programs know they're being had but think the meretricious certificate might help them get their foot in the door. In your case, however, you've already got that entry level job. I don't see a case for entering a second-tier program.

 

[JeffT]

Point definitely taken, but do you think I'd have a shot at getting into a top-tier program, and if not, where would this all leave me in terms of jobs that require graduate degrees? As far as "the one who has to decide is me" goes, I obviously understand that, but unlike a situation like undergrad admissions where it's pretty easy to figure out what's required and where people stand in the pecking order based on their various qualifications, I feel like I don't have nearly enough information yet to be making all that particularly sound a decision on any of this, and it worries me... I feel like I'm flying blind.

 

[Daniel Duffy]

The community colleges don't seem to go up to advanced enough levels of math but it looks like Northwestern has a "continuing education night-school" kind of thing. All I really know, though, is that I'll have to take some kind of diff eq course, linear algebra, and calculus-based probability, but besides linear algebra where there's a course specifically call "Linear Algebra" it doesn't seem really self-explanatory what to take (I'm assuming "Probability and Stochastic Processes" is what I should take for "calculus-based probability") but there seem to be about 4 different diff eq courses of increasing degree of difficulty and I don't know which one would be necessary... could someone possibly take a quick glance at this page of listings and give me some direction on which courses would be best to take in preparation for application to MFE?

http://www.scs.northwestern.edu/courses/?Department=MATH

I really appreciate it

From the titles in general (Vector and linear algebra, multiple integrals, partial derivatives) these are essential topics to know IMO (compare them to driver license). However, a lot of QF is applied, numerical and computational (and dare I mention C++) and I do not see any numerical analysis being mentioned.

Do you learn numerics after you get the job? Based on my limited experience the more 'pure' topics are not enough for Monte Carlo, PDE, time series etc.

Remark: many links from poster(s) are either broken or not accurate.

 

[bigbadwolf]

Point definitely taken, but do you think I'd have a shot at getting into a top-tier program, and if not, where would this all leave me in terms of jobs that require graduate degrees? As far as "the one who has to decide is me" goes, I obviously understand that, but unlike a situation like undergrad admissions where it's pretty easy to figure out what's required and where people stand in the pecking order based on their various qualifications, I feel like I don't have nearly enough information yet to be making all that particularly sound a decision on any of this, and it worries me... I feel like I'm flying blind.

The existential anguish of having to make a decision is yours and it's easy for people like me to offer advice -- not my money, not my time. This caveat out of the way, what you've got on your side are your tender years -- you're still in your mid-20s. You have room to make risky decisions that may not pan out.

The problem with the quant job market -- as I understand it -- is that it's "winner-take-all." Once you're in a second-tier job because of a second-tier MFE, chances are you'll stay with that kind of limited job, with limited prospects. The competition for the first-tier jobs is ferocious. And I suppose one question -- to put it gently -- is: Do you think you can compete with those first-tier candidates? Their math aptitude is probably stronger than yours. Their general level of ability may be higher. If you're sure you can and think your relatively poor grades were just an anomaly, an aberration, then you should try to convince admissions committees of first-tier programs of this.

 

[Jose T]

OP - I think you're wrong to equate 'ambition' and 'wanting to be a quant'. Most successful people are not quants. Maybe a high percentage of people who are quants are successful but there are certainly other paths.

BBW - One thing I would note is that your comments are painting 'non top tier' programs with a broad brush. We can disagree on this, but having attended an Ivy myself and a state school, I wouldn't say there's an huge divergence in educational quality.