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Fell short in my interviews. Would appreciate some advice.

  • Thread starter Thread starter ramtex
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3/21/23
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The title is self-explanatory. I'm a phd student in engineering, and I got interviewed by 10 or so firms for the QR intern role. I got to the the final round of interviews with four of them but fell short each time. Right now, I have the option of either trying to apply for FT directly (which I hear is harder to do than intern--> FT) in about 6 months or so, or delay graduation and try to get an intern for summer 2024. I would appreciate advice about where to go from here. Would trying to get an internship for the summer after this one be wise vs. trying for to get a full time offer in 6 months? Thanks.
 
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I could think of a couple of reasons:
1. Nerves. I have a bad habit of getting nervous and not thinking straight in interviews. This problem has gotten better over time, and i still need more practice before i get rid of it.
2. Preparation. I had started to prepare about a a couple of months before my interviews. I went through the entirety of the green book, but it seems that going through that much material in a short time made a few things difficult to remember. At times, I blanked out on simple facts that you could find in the green book. So I definitely need to prepare more slowly so I can master the technical portion of the interviews.

Luck also played a factor, but I think I fell short because of the two reasons above. I have a plan in mind to address the two. What I hope I can get clarification on is whether these firms will interview me again for a full time role after 6 months, and wether the difficulty of joining as a full time employee directly is a good reason to delay my graduation and try for an intern role again next year if I want to maximize my chances of landing a role. Thank you.
 
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A few stylized facts for you to consider.

1. The two points that you raised sound like they are addressable in a year but for PhD hires the reasons can be much more idiosyncratic. We used to play a game of guessing who'll get an offer based on resume without anyone having spoken to the candidates, and there's always multimodality and higher variance of predictions for the PhDs (than undergrads), not to mention worse accuracy.
2. It perceivably much harder to get a full time position without doing the internship is because we believe in adverse selection of candidates in the intern pool vs the open recruitment pools. This bias is much stronger for undergrads than for PhDs
3. Firms like PhDs who have done good work in their own fields, better if it is relevant. How much would your PhD thesis or other research help?
 
I could think of a couple of reasons:
1. Nerves. I have a bad habit of getting nervous and not thinking straight in interviews. This problem has gotten better over time, and i still need more practice before i get rid of it.
2. Preparation. I had started to prepare about a a couple of months before my interviews. I went through the entirety of the green book, but it seems that going through that much material in a short time made a few things difficult to remember. At times, I blanked out on simple calculus facts that you could find in the green book. So I definitely need to prepare more slowly so I can master the technical portion of the interviews.

Luck also played a factor, but I think I fell short because of the two reasons above. I have a plan in mind to address the two. What I hope I can get clarification on is whether these firms will interview me again for a full time role after 6 months, and wether the difficulty of joining as a full time employee directly is a good reason to delay my graduation and try for an intern role again next year if I want to maximize my chances of landing a role. Thank you.
I'll say something similar to the last poster in terms of idiosyncraticity - some firms or line managers want heavy maths, others want a client facing math person etc etc. By no means a comprehensive list. Also if there is anything properly relevant in your PhD work ie actually would be useful to a practising quant, then explain why. If you're going to do that make sure it's accurate - if you do something like the quant equivalent of saying you have "project management experience" based on once putting shelves up then you will be found out and piss people off.

In terms of preparation - quant interviews are the worst and can take a bit to prepare for. Bear in mind though what interviewers are looking for is how you think. And you have been getting to final rounds - it's a myth-ish that if you were selected for first round then there is something about you - really it means you can write a good CV/resume, getting to the final round means you have a serious chance. You can consider internships, can't be any harm but also look at how to widen the search - hedge funds for instance.

There's also considering similar coding roles, data etc. I'm in healthcare at the moment and there is far more scope for moving in differnt directions while in finance there was none of that - you might be lucky and get stability, it's not impossible in finance especially in middle office.

Last thing I would say about nerves is to be pretty uncompromising about any external forces eg are family or partner pushing you around over not having a job yet? Because if they are it only gets worse from here on. The trick is detach yourself from their crap - in psychological terminology break codependency and don't try to please them or reason with them. Family members of mine have bludgeoned crass and innacurate career advice down my throat that would have cost me big time and it didn't stop until I stopped justifying and defending myself and detached family from my life. I still have to live with clowns in my family that think I never used my masters - and they're not just referring to them not realising that I use the same processes in my data work, I've heard these special cases actually tell me to my face that I didn't use a masters in financial maths in my role as a quant. Not one word of a joke.

If that doesn't apply - granted the level of toxicity in my family was off the charts, then I would just remember that if you can show how you think and that you have common sense (eg if you're asked about downturns in share prices don't say "ooohh that's interesting volatility" because you will be working with traders that are on edge. Instead describe it as a challenge that you want to smash) then you are doing well. Also most people I know that have hired people despise this HR crap around nerves - a common theme is that if they prompt you they will get the best candidates and if a firm refuses to do this then you're better off not working there. Even the senior managers in my current place, who aren't necessarily technical, find nerves hit them and I've gotten supposed "top" jobs, whatever the fuck that means, having been nervous in interview. Maybe instead think "Do I want to work for this lot?" instead of being desperate or find, say, a data entry job for the time being if you're worried about money.
 
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A few stylized facts for you to consider.

1. The two points that you raised sound like they are addressable in a year but for PhD hires the reasons can be much more idiosyncratic. We used to play a game of guessing who'll get an offer based on resume without anyone having spoken to the candidates, and there's always multimodality and higher variance of predictions for the PhDs (than undergrads), not to mention worse accuracy.
2. It perceivably much harder to get a full time position without doing the internship is because we believe in adverse selection of candidates in the intern pool vs the open recruitment pools. This bias is much stronger for undergrads than for PhDs
3. Firms like PhDs who have done good work in their own fields, better if it is relevant. How much would your PhD thesis or other research help?
Thank you for your response.
1. I will keep this in mind. I almost always got a rejection email after I had bombed an interview round (due to the two reasons I outlined), so I believe I must address them first.
2. If I'm understanding this correctly, you're saying it is definitely harder to get a full time offer without an internship, but this spike in difficulty is not as severe if you're a PhD?
3. My research is in theoretical ML, so it is not very applicable.
 
I'll say something similar to the last poster in terms of idiosyncraticity - some firms or line managers want heavy maths, others want a client facing math person etc etc. By no means a comprehensive list. Also if there is anything properly relevant in your PhD work ie actually would be useful to a practising quant, then explain why. If you're going to do that make sure it's accurate - if you do something like the quant equivalent of saying you have "project management experience" based on once putting shelves up then you will be found out and piss people off.

In terms of preparation - quant interviews are the worst and can take a bit to prepare for. Bear in mind though what interviewers are looking for is how you think. And you have been getting to final rounds - it's a myth-ish that if you were selected for first round then there is something about you - really it means you can write a good CV/resume, getting to the final round means you have a serious chance. You can consider internships, can't be any harm but also look at how to widen the search - hedge funds for instance.

There's also considering similar coding roles, data etc. I'm in healthcare at the moment and there is far more scope for moving in differnt directions while in finance there was none of that - you might be lucky and get stability, it's not impossible in finance especially in middle office.

Last thing I would say about nerves is to be pretty uncompromising about any external forces eg are family or partner pushing you around over not having a job yet? Because if they are it only gets worse from here on. The trick is detach yourself from their crap - in psychological terminology break codependency and don't try to please them or reason with them. Family members of mine have bludgeoned crass and innacurate career advice down my throat that would have cost me big time and it didn't stop until I stopped justifying and defending myself and detached family from my life. I still have to live with clowns in my family that think I never used my masters - and they're not just referring to them not realising that I use the same processes in my data work, I've heard these special cases actually tell me to my face that I didn't use a masters in financial maths in my role as a quant. Not one word of a joke.

If that doesn't apply - granted the level of toxicity in my family was off the charts, then I would just remember that if you can show how you think and that you have common sense (eg if you're asked about downturns in share prices don't say "ooohh that's interesting volatility" because you will be working with traders that are on edge. Instead describe it as a challenge that you want to smash) then you are doing well. Also most people I know that have hired people despise this HR crap around nerves - a common theme is that if they prompt you they will get the best candidates and if a firm refuses to do this then you're better off not working there. Even the senior managers in my current place, who aren't necessarily technical, find nerves hit them and I've gotten supposed "top" jobs, whatever the fuck that means, having been nervous in interview. Maybe instead think "Do I want to work for this lot?" instead of being desperate or find, say, a data entry job for the time being if you're worried about money.
Thank you for your response. My research is primarily theoretical and and so I use heavy math in it. My work is not very applicable since it theoretical in nature. I also indeed have been under pressure to provide for family. I am working towards compartmentalizing. And I agree with you that I have went into these interviews with a somewhat "desperate" attitude.
 
When it comes to applicability of your research, I wouldn’t simply write it off. Have you been going to the large ML conferences and network? Most of your target firms are probably sponsors and you should interact with them as much as possible.
 
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