Late 30s, trying to break into finance. Update on my job search...

[MNRC]

Just wanted to give an update on my job search and hopefully help other forum members who are trying to break into finance.

I'm a former web developer in my late 30s trying to make a career change from the internet industry to finance. I have 10 years' of experience in web development. About five years ago I realized that my job was not fulfilling and that after years of trading with an online brokerage account as a hobby I'd rather do something related to finance. So, I quit my job at a reputable dotcom last year and enrolled at a target university full-time for a master's in computer science. I utilized my school's career development resource center to apply for internships. My results so far:

Summer internships:
BNY Mellon Technology Summer Associate (interview scheduled)
BAML Technology Developer and Analyst Intern (pending)

Rejected by all other bulge brackets. Applied to Quantitative Analyst summer internships too, but rejected as well. So, yes, it's very difficult to break into finance when you're older and without the 'right' degree (ie, MFE or Math). I'm going to try and switch to the master's in math program at my school and that might open opportunities for quantitative developer roles. I'm also doing a software developer internship with a small local investment banking firm this spring semester. Hopefully, all these things combined will open up opportunities in quant finance in the future.

 

[alain]

Just wanted to give an update on my job search and hopefully help other forum members who are trying to break into finance.

I'm a former web developer in my late 30s trying to make a career change from the internet industry to finance. I have 10 years' of experience in web development. About five years ago I realized that my job was not fulfilling and that after years of trading with an online brokerage account as a hobby I'd rather do something related to finance. So, I quit my job at a reputable dotcom last year and enrolled at a target university full-time for a master's in computer science. I utilized my school's career development resource center to apply for internships. My results so far:

Summer internships:
BNY Mellon Technology Summer Associate (interview scheduled)
BAML Technology Developer and Analyst Intern (pending)

Rejected by all other bulge brackets. Applied to Quantitative Analyst summer internships too, but rejected as well. So, yes, it's very difficult to break into finance when you're older and without the 'right' degree (ie, MFE or Math). I'm going to try and switch to the master's in math program at my school and that might open opportunities for quantitative developer roles. I'm also doing a software developer internship with a small local investment banking firm this spring semester. Hopefully, all these things combined will open up opportunities in quant finance in the future.

What do you mean when you say you are trying to break into finance?

Which reputable dotcom you left behind?

 

[MNRC]

What do you mean when you say you are trying to break into finance? Which reputable dotcom you left behind?

I'm looking to work as a quantitative developer but coming from a master's in computer science background it's difficult to land those jobs.

PM-ed you the company.

 

[georgemichael]

Listen man, I've been following your stories and you are making a serious mistake. You don't seem to have the first clue about anything finance related. Why do you want to be a trader so badly? Is it just for the money? Do you know the difference between different types of securities much less which one you want to trade?

People on here are pretty nice in saying that it isn't "impossible" to go from back office tech to front office. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE. It won't happen. It may have happened occasionally a decade or two ago but there is absolutely no chance anyone will take you seriously if you say you want to become a trader. Do NOT bet your career on this because it will most definitely be a bet you will lose. You haven't even traded simulated money much less your own real money, how the heck do you think this is going to work for you? You might be an excellent back office IT guy but they've got grads lined up a dime a dozen to be traders. They don't need to pull up the waterboy to play when top draft picks are clamoring for the spot.

Seriously man, look into why you want to be a trader and tell us because frankly, there is no way in hell you have a good reason. When I went looking for a trading job when I graduated college 7 years ago the difference in the amount of research and time and effort I had put into the job search and what you have put in is enormous. If I was sitting on the other side of the table interviewing you there is no chance you are getting a second round. I mean, what are you even going to do about the technical questions? You don't know the first thing about trading. Not to mention that trading desks (and this is a generalization) can be pretty ruthless. Being a 40 year old intern walking in is not going to be an easy sell, not by a long shot. And it isn't even just about the jokes, I'm sure you can develop a thick skin for that. No one will give you the time of the day.

NOT TO MENTION do you have any clue how much the trading world is getting squeezed right now? Jobs are tough for young, qualified, knowledgeable grads. Where could you possibly think there is room for you?

 

[Daniel Duffy]

You mention your age which is less of an issue IMO compared to the perceived skills 'hole/hiatus' in your case.

For example, no offence, but developing Web applications is in general no preparation for the programming jobs in finance. And lack of a decent maths background is a big handicap. And from what I see many masters CS courses fall short of any decent maths content.

I have 10 years' of experience in web development

What kind of stuff did you typically do?


You are young enough; trading is not the only profession in the world...

 

[GoIllini]

People on here are pretty nice in saying that it isn't "impossible" to go from back office tech to front office. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE. It won't happen. It may have happened occasionally a decade or two ago but there is absolutely no chance anyone will take you seriously if you say you want to become a trader. Do NOT bet your career on this because it will most definitely be a bet you will lose. You haven't even traded simulated money much less your own real money, how the heck do you think this is going to work for you? You might be an excellent back office IT guy but they've got grads lined up a dime a dozen to be traders. They don't need to pull up the waterboy to play when top draft picks are clamoring for the spot.

1.) People are nice here. Quants are nice in general. So I am going to politely state that you may have an attitude that may make getting a job different in difficulty than it is for others.

2.). I made it from IT to the trading floor in 2010. That's less than a decade ago. Now I am getting hired into quant strategy at a nice hedge fund. Others have pulled it off more recently. I think you overestimate the gap between the "waterboys" and "draft picks".

When I went looking for a trading job when I graduated college 7 years ago the difference in the amount of research and time and effort I had put into the job search and what you have put in is enormous.

I would phrase this differently but I agree. OP needs to do more research.

NOT TO MENTION do you have any clue how much the trading world is getting squeezed right now? Jobs are tough for young, qualified, knowledgeable grads. Where could you possibly think there is room for you?

I think jobs are pretty easy to come by in this business. There is always a shortage of qualified, hard-working, intelligent people who know stats, understand finance, and know how to code, who come with a good attitude. If you are that kind of person (I think a lot of people on quantnet are), you'll be just fine.

@MNRC between alain and Daniel, you're getting some really experienced help in this thread. I have five years of experience on the street (plus two in an MFE program), and these guys probably know a helluvalot more than I do. Whatever PM alain sent you back, read it over a couple times and think about it. I know you have a lot more general wisdom than I do, but I'm not sure you have more life experience than Daniel and alain, and I certainly don't think you're wiser than them about finance.

My honest advice is that you seriously rethink tech. I've never been a trader, but I've been a desk strat, which is 5x more stress than I've ever experienced as a developer. A trader experiences at least 2-3x my stress, and I'm not sure he makes all that much more than an experienced web developer, at least for the bottom 80%.

It's great that you enjoy trading. But trading on your own account, and answering to yourself, is different than staying within risk limits and meeting PNL targets while people are yelling at you, all while going up to bat against people whom you are absolutely certain have at least 10 IQ points on you (EG the dreaded phone call from DE Shaw, SIG, or AQR. I am not going to explain what these firms are. Hopefully I have piqued your interest enough for you to google them).

The humbling fact of this market is that there are always people who are smarter than you. And even if you're smart, it doesn't matter all that much. It really comes down to execution, at least on the sellside. As the desk strat, 90% of my releases had to go out flawlessly just to meet my boss's expectations. As a trader, you have to execute perfectly on more like 95-98% of your trades. Oh, and there are people shouting at you and the trading floor looks and feels like a war zone compared to a calm office at a tech firm like Google.

You might be the kind of guy who can handle all of that and be a great sellside trader. I can tell you that I'd like to think I'm a standard deviation tougher and more suited for trading than the average programmer, but I'm probably nowhere near where a trader needs to be. I can tell you that being on the trading floor as a desk strat/quant is a total blast, but after the second or third year, I started getting heart palpitations. I can tell you that most people who work on the trading floor will tell you that working on the trading floor will shorten your life; I agree with them. I can tell you that as a quant or a desk developer on the trading floor, you may very well be the nicest person there. (It's not that all of the other people are inherently worse than you; they are just dealing with even more stress.)

Look, everyone wants to sit at the desk near the traders, and to think about being a trader. It's a lot of fun. There's a lot of pride in knowing you're worth the real estate, and to know that the firm might trust you with it's capital. But spending a few years there tells you what kind of person you are. I know I'm probably a decent person with handling risk, but that it's terrible for my mental and circulatory health. And while I don't think people working in tech have cushy jobs, I think that dollars per stress/hustle, you earn more as a web developer than most (not all) traders do.

 

[MNRC]

Look, everyone wants to sit at the desk near the traders, and to think about being a trader. It's a lot of fun. There's a lot of pride in knowing you're worth the real estate, and to know that the firm might trust you with it's capital. But spending a few years there tells you what kind of person you are. I know I'm probably a decent person with handling risk, but that it's terrible for my mental and circulatory health. And while I don't think people working in tech have cushy jobs, I think that dollars per stress/hustle, you earn more as a web developer than most (not all) traders do.

Thanks, Gollini. I actually have done more homework over the winter break and see that the stress of the trading floor might be too much to handle. I had worked for a high traffic dotcom in the past and the stress there already gave me heart palpitations--mostly because the web applications we built were used by tens of millions of visitors annually and the site generated millions in revenue a year so if anything broke the site your head got served on a platter to the department VP I don't think I want a lot more stress than that. At this point I'm looking at possibly an analyst or research position instead. It seems to require a PhD, but I'm loving grad school anyway and would be here learning for the sake of learning quant job or no.

I've already heard of prop trading names like SIG, Jane Street, and DE Shaw. I know they're sitting high on the pecking order of quant trading firms and their technical interviews are very difficult to pass.

I had applied to Citi's Quant Trading and Analysis summer internship through my school. That was back in early December and I haven't heard back from them. I emailed an HR person last week and she told me they're still haven't made a final decision. How long does it take for them to make a decision on waitlisted people? It's been 2 and a half months...

Regarding the pay scale for a quant dev it can't possibly be worse than that of a web developer. A good web developer with several years' experience might hit $120K + 10% bonus, but I think good quant devs are compensated better than that. I guess for traders it's more variable since pay is heavily tied to performance.

 

[GoIllini]

Regarding the pay scale for a quant dev it can't possibly be worse than that of a web developer. A good web developer with several years' experience might hit $120K + 10% bonus, but I think good quant devs are compensated better than that. I guess for traders it's more variable since pay is heavily tied to performance.

So salary for a reasonably experienced quant developer at many prop shops in Chicago starts at $60K. There's bonus, but I'm not sure total comp is better than what you're making.

NYC sellside, starting comp is generally lower than the numbers you cite. You may make that after a few years, but it's not a guarantee.

Look, we're kind of in uncharted territory with web development (it's only been around for ~15 years), but my suspicion is that careers there will progress/age just as gracefully there as in quant development.

And getting fed to the department VP is probably easier than getting fed to a team of angry traders.

 

[JasynL]

@MNRC thank you for sharing. I'm similar to you professionally, as a Web developer with 10+ years of experience (now at the Technical Lead level) and 36, so I completely understand your struggles. I was interested in the feedback because I'm curious to see what others have to say about a possible career switch.

Just to clarify, what exactly are you looking to do in finance? Are you looking to leverage your programming background? I was looking at Quant Development as a way to leverage my programming experience.

@Daniel Duffy -- I don't know personally what the jobs in finance are like, though from my reading I get the sense that you are probably right that the programming jobs in finance are vastly different from developing online information systems. That said, I question your statement that "developing Web applications is in general no preparation for the programming jobs in finance." When people say "Web development," they often can't picture someone developing mission critical database driven information systems. From what I read, many of the same technologies are used, same Windows or Unix/Linux servers, Java, Python, SQL/databases, etc. Of course, with highly complex algorithms, at lightning fast speeds. I'm assuming you're probably also referring to the amount of stress in the financial jobs. For that reason, MNRC would be starting from the ground level, of course. But there has to be some "transferable" skills, right? 10+ years of experience as a programmer, compared to someone with zero professional experience, everything else being equal, wouldn't that provide some competitive advantage over a total developer newbie?

@GoIllini , I am following you, but I have a few questions for you too. Quant developers in Chicago might make $60k, but Chicago isn't exactly the central marketplace for IT. I don't see "reasonably experienced" developers making $60k in any of the big cities, regardless of industry. Are you suggesting that quant developers make less than the average developer? I have a hard time believing that. I certainly wouldn't consider switching industries if it meant the average pay for an experienced quant developer was far less than what I was currently making.

As for "uncharted territory"... I don't see Web developer jobs aging gracefully at all. As MNRC states, they top out at $120K and that's it. 98% of developers don't get bonuses, let alone P&L. I'm already reaching the max potential for my career (as a tech lead) unless I make a switch into another industry. There are no vertical moves beyond the CIO office (if you're lucky). Then, there's the fact that the Web is fading (or eventually will) as a place for serious computing. And throw in the fact that the market continues to be flooded with new entrants all the time. It seems like the only choice for an experienced Web developer is to move into something that requires a more advanced skill set.

@georgemichael -you say, the "trading world is getting squeezed right now," but what industry isn't? As a developer, I'll always be competing with those fresh out of college. (And those fresh college grads will too, eventually.) You say "Jobs are tough for young, qualified, knowledgeable grads." I disagree. The stats on the underemployment of college grads is misleading. We still have a lot of people getting degrees in English, Psychology, and the fine arts. Recruiters have a hard time finding enough IT people with experience. If you're looking for IT people with quant skills, I can't imagine that there'd be a glut of qualified people there. Of course, if you are right, then that's all the more reason to get into the field now instead of later.

Just playing the Devil's Advocate here.

 

[GoIllini]

@GoIllini , I am following you, but I have a few questions for you too. Quant developers in Chicago might make $60k, but Chicago isn't exactly the central marketplace for IT. I don't see "reasonably experienced" developers making $60k in any of the big cities, regardless of industry. Are you suggesting that quant developers make less than the average developer? I have a hard time believing that. I certainly wouldn't consider switching industries if it meant the average pay for an experienced quant developer was far less than what I was currently making.

I've seen a lot of people leave finance for tech over the past few years. I've seen guys quit jobs at Morgan Stanley for Google, leave Goldman Sachs for Facebook (developer roles in both cases.) At a bank, you're a cost. At a tech firm, you're part of the core business model.

As for "uncharted territory"... I don't see Web developer jobs aging gracefully at all. As MNRC states, they top out at $120K and that's it. 98% of developers don't get bonuses, let alone P&L. I'm already reaching the max potential for my career (as a tech lead) unless I make a switch into another industry. There are no vertical moves beyond the CIO office (if you're lucky). Then, there's the fact that the Web is fading (or eventually will) as a place for serious computing. And throw in the fact that the market continues to be flooded with new entrants all the time. It seems like the only choice for an experienced Web developer is to move into something that requires a more advanced skill set.

I've heard similar complaints about the business outlook at comp limits on the finance side. I've also heard complaints about high blood pressure, arrythmias, various stress and aging-related health issues... from people as young as their late '20s.

So I encourage a career as a programmer in general, but I don't necessarily encourage a career as quant developer. There are much easier ways to make a buck as a developer than finance, at least right now. (My answer would have been different before 2008). Especially for a mid-30s career change. I'm telling college undergrads studying CS to go work for Google rather than work as quant developers- I think my advice, if anything, would be stronger for a web developer in his 30s with more natural synergies for the tech firms than the banks. It's a better fit in terms of technology you use and in terms of the culture. Spending an extra 10 minutes every morning to carefully shave, put on a suit and tie a tie 252 days/week, and arrive before 8 AM gets old really fast if you're more of a polo shirt/ shorts kind of guy.

Finance and technology have been married since mainframe computers, but you don't see a lot of 50 year old desk developers- or traders. I'm not sure if they get heart attacks, if they get laid off when they hit a certain age, or if they get securitized into soylent green. I am relatively sure that the job pays well, but not well enough to retire at 50 if you have a family.

 

[JasynL]

Thank you for the reply, by the way. I'm happy to be having a discussion with someone who has an insider perspective. Still, I have a few more counterpoints to offer.

* For financial firms that are staking a lot on algorithmic trading, especially UHFT, can't it be argued that the IT *is* the business model? It's basically becoming a tech sport, right?

* You say it's easier to make a buck, etc. I have heard lawyers tell me not to go into law, a doctor said medicine wasn't worth it like it was years ago, and now a quant is telling me that people should not do quant. I'm sorry, but the whole "don't do as I do" business seems a bit odd because it's basically saying, "I can handle it, you can't." It's not like my job is a piece of cake. I work 50+ hour weeks and have had heart arrythmia too. Not that this is a competition or anything. As for the dotcom culture, I don't work for one of those types of firms, and "startup culture" is one of those things I hate. I am one of the rare few that actually likes wearing a tie. If there are easier ways to make a buck, name two that don't involve Web development, finance, the healthcare industry, or working as a military/NSA contractor. Yeah, for programmers, the list is really short. Any programming job that requires more knowledge than just an understanding of programming (like data analysis) is going to pay more than those that just require programming knowledge. Hence the reason why quant developers, last I checked, have a higher average starting salary.

* You also don't see 50-year-old Web developers. Or programmers in general. That's partly due to ageism. It also has to do with the rise in the number of programmers in the last 20 years as computers have become far more commonplace. So, this doesn't seem unique at all.

* As for pay, a developer at a large company makes marginally more than developers at small companies. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like the industry is what makes the difference.

* I'm 100% certain you are right about the stress levels of working at Google. Sounds like a very awesome place to work. That's another reason why I'd prefer the finance industry. All the major players are on the East Coast. I don't like Silicon Valley enough to want to move out to the West Coast.

So you see, there might be other reasons why people would want to choose a career that you so highly advise against. Don't try to presume you know all the motivating factors. But the advice is greatly appreciated. In spite of the discouragement, I still really would like to know how to best get into the field as a programmer.

 

[GoIllini]

I'm sorry, but the whole "don't do as I do" business seems a bit odd because it's basically saying, "I can handle it, you can't."

For the record that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying "Gee. Knowing what I know today, I'm not sure I would be going into finance today like I did at the height of the bubble. I would have gone to work at Google Finance (based in NYC) where the coding and finance problems were the same, the work situation was a little lower key and the pay was just as good."

In spite of the discouragement, I still really would like to know how to best get into the field as a programmer.

So all of the major firms have job postings. Apply to a job you'd be a good fit for. These submissions do get read. That may be your best bet.

It may also be helpful if you have friends who work at these firms who can stick your resume in front of people.

There's a website called Wall Street Oasis that sponsors meetups in Manhattan every few weeks. The place is generally filled with college students and kids in their early 20s desperately seeking IBD jobs, but if you're just looking for a tech role, spots are always opening up and a lot of these guys get a referral if you get hired. I think people would want to help you and wouldn't need to go to bat for you very much to make it happen. That said, I'm not sure you'll earn more.

* For financial firms that are staking a lot on algorithmic trading, especially UHFT, can't it be argued that the IT *is* the business model? It's basically becoming a tech sport, right?

My understanding is that that's becoming a really tough game to win, and it's moving from programmers and computer science majors to chip designers and computer engineers.

To be honest, I sense a little frustration here. And I don't know why. You're in tech. You're not seeing bid/ask spreads get squeezed on the sellside and a shrinking pool of alpha on the buyside. There aren't massive layoffs in your industry (Barclays just laid off 10K people a few weeks ago). You're making good money. Be happy.

 

[zrzxy]

I'm few years younger than OP but I was in similar shoes and have made a successful switch from IT/web to quant dev. Previously I worked 4 years in a web company and 2 years as a founder of a web startup. Meanwhile I finished a PhD in CS and got a job in a prop trading firm. I had zero previous finance experience (and also no previous internship in finance), so it's definitely possible (but having a PhD mattered to get the interviews). My starting base was higher than $120k+10% and the total comp is much better than I was making in the web industry (not to say that I enjoy the current job more).

 

[JasynL]

Knowing what I know today, I'm not sure I would be going into finance today like I did at the height of the bubble.​

I'm sensing that a lot of the real world problems I experience as a developer now would probably not go away if I was to switch industries. I often say the same thing about software development in general and then look at surveys that show it to be the number one field to go into. I wonder if everyone just feels like the grass is greener on the other side.

Don't get me wrong. A lot of what you say I'm definitely taking notes on. I'm a realist too.

There is frustration. You say there aren't massive layoffs, but that's kind of where you're not seeing it. There is ZERO job stability in the Web world. Almost all projects are short term. There are no "layoffs" because few jobs last more than two years. I have worked for 12 companies in the last 12 years. Ok, most of the work was in consulting and sometimes I switched because I chose to. But there were several companies that folded while I was there. Some positions were eliminated for budget reason. There is so much volatility. Add to that the fact that tenure means little. Even though I have over a decade of experience and know six programming languages, I may be leading a team of developers, but I'm also still competing with the guy who lived in his mom's basement for the last four years and did nothing but program in one language.

Point is: Web development salaries are not sustainable. Like finance, back in the heyday, there were a lot of people who had dreams of making it big. Web development is devolving into grunt work. All the really great applications and tools have mostly been created.

For me, the crux of a sustainable career path is one that is more dependent on mastering a pure STEM subject matter rather than the next fad programming technology (e.g., Ruby on Rails). All jobs are either being fully automated or outsourced overseas. The jobs of the future will be those that require proximity (teachers, nurses, etc.) and those that require mastery of a subject matter that still requires a human brain to some extent (like statistics and data science). Because I see the potential for growth in the field of data mining, data science and Big Data, this is something that I want to get into. For me, Computational Statistics is worth pursuing. It does not have to be in the finance industry, per se. It does seem like there's still potential there. But maybe not.

Thanks for the tips. You've given me a lot to think about.

 

[TraderJoe]

Well the bottom line is that you may not have the intellectual ability and you definitely do not have the skills to break into quant finance. You bring nothing to the table. You write long posts and whine about low salaries in web development, but if someone sees your resume, they will conclude that you do not have the Math skills or the computer skills which are in demand in quant finance. If you are genuinely interested, you can try to do a PhD in Computer Science or an MFE from a school like Berkeley or Princeton. That will help you break in. But you will be around 50 years old by the time you break in and your colleagues will be in their mid-twenties. Do you really want to be a grandpop to your colleagues.

 

[Daniel Duffy]

@Daniel Duffy -- I don't know personally what the jobs in finance are like, though from my reading I get the sense that you are probably right that the programming jobs in finance are vastly different from developing online information systems. That said, I question your statement that "developing Web applications is in general no preparation for the programming jobs in finance." When people say "Web development," they often can't picture someone developing mission critical database driven information systems. From what I read, many of the same technologies are used, same Windows or Unix/Linux servers, Java, Python, SQL/databases, etc. Of course, with highly complex algorithms, at lightning fast speeds. I'm assuming you're probably also referring to the amount of stress in the financial jobs. For that reason, MNRC would be starting from the ground level, of course. But there has to be some "transferable" skills, right? 10+ years of experience as a programmer, compared to someone with zero professional experience, everything else being equal, wouldn't that provide some competitive advantage over a total developer newbie?

Here's my 2 Euro-cents

"Mission-critical" can mean very many things. There are many flavours and many methods to ensure that levels are met. e.g. from basic recoverability of the DB to 100% fault-tolerance.

You could be right, that's why I asked OP _what_ he did the last 10 years. Knowing that will give an answer. But "Web" is kind of 'soft computing' in this sense, at least to me. Much of the tricky parts of computing (race conditions,...) are removed by DBA, Java etc. You are programming in a 'coccoon' as it were, shielded from nasty low-level issues. You see it a lot with Java developers who try to learn C/C++/assembler(!) realise that they are 'deskilled'.

And when novice programmers make a career direction decision it is for a good reason... Stick to what you are good at.

I am not referring to stress levels. Again, skills level is an issue IMO.

Like a nurse/GP who wants to become a specialist/surgeon.


But there has to be some "transferable" skills, right?
Not necessarily, or not enough. It is possible to have answers to questions people do not have.

 

[GoIllini]

I'm few years younger than OP but I was in similar shoes and have made a successful switch from IT/web to quant dev. Previously I worked 4 years in a web company and 2 years as a founder of a web startup. Meanwhile I finished a PhD in CS and got a job in a prop trading firm. I had zero previous finance experience (and also no previous internship in finance), so it's definitely possible (but having a PhD mattered to get the interviews). My starting base was higher than $120k+10% and the total comp is much better than I was making in the web industry (not to say that I enjoy the current job more).

A couple points here:

1.) Prop shops pay a big risk premium over banks.
2.) There are entry-level financial programmer jobs that a developer can get, and then there are entry-level quant developer jobs that someone with a top ~10-15 MS or PhD can get. You started a couple years ahead of the curve with a quantitative graduate degree. We're not assuming OP has that; we're not assuming OP can get that. Note that he did get a CS MS and still struggled with recruiting.

Much of the tricky parts of computing (race conditions,...) are removed by DBA, Java etc.

For the record, you do run into threading problems and race conditions in Java. Synchronized blocks are a lot harder to screw up than mutexes, but I've seen smart/experienced developers make huge threading screwups without having to try all that hard. Memory leaks are a different story- they're easy to get in C++ but you have to be really screwed up to get one in Java.

Java is an easier language in the sense that we get a really nice IDE, we get cross-platform compatibility, and there is less focus on the guts of the execution. I'm not denying that C++ is tougher or that Java developers may struggle in the transition to C++; I'm just not sure that Java is a soft language.

 

[MNRC]

It's been my experience that many have been told they can't do many things and yet I see the "impossible" happen, such as zrzxy in his 30s with a PhD and no finance experience get recruited out of school by a prop shop or someone at wallstreetoasis who said he recently moved from BO in technology to FO after working on the trading infrastructure. After the "impossible" happens then many reasons are found for why something so singular happened. I was told I would get zero interviews with a bank for a SA position but recently did an OCR interview with a large asset manager (maybe not the most prestigious company but more than I was told I could hope for). I don't think anyone can decide for you what you should do, whether you should do it, or if you should just quit. That's an individual decision and given the ceiling cap on salary that software developers are faced with I think many who have some interest in finance are still going to try the quant route. Besides the best prop shops and IT companies are about equally as demanding. I don't think it's much easier to get a software developer job at Google/Facebook than one at SIG/Jane Street.

 

[GoIllini]

Sure, but if another person can tell you how to "do the impossible", it's not all that impossible, is it?

"Doing the impossible" happens through finding the right opportunity that your background makes you a strong fit for, working your butt off there, developing your reputation within and outside the firm, getting people to go to bat for you based on your prior work, and seeing where that takes you.

9x out of 10, the impossible happens when someone else who knows you very very well has the ability and the desire to help you. But the only way for people to know you very very well is for you to work with them, and the only way for that to happen is for you to get a job on the street. That's the catch-22 here, but it is not as difficult as you think to land a backoffice IT job and then work your way up into a quant developer role.

Other people can't tell you how to do the impossible. Through hard work, you have to figure out how to make the impossible possible. My advice is to take a backoffice job and develop a reputation for doing really really good work. I understand this is very frustrating. But if there were a shortcut to land one of the ~5000 quant developer jobs on the street that 20,000 people seem to want (and I have no clue why when tech is booming), those other 20,000 people would have already used those shortcuts.

I see a lot of desire for a high profile job here but I'm not sure the desire for the grunt work of doing your research and working your way into this role is there. I think you have this assumption that these jobs just fall into peoples' laps randomly. While a quick glance at the industry might lead you to think that, if you look more closely, the people landing these jobs have done a great deal of research, have a great deal of sophistication, and have put in a lot of work just to get to the interview. In order to start developing that sophistication and developing that network of people who can go to bat for you, my recommendation is, worst case, take a backoffice IT job and then try to do an internal transfer after two years, assuming you have excellent work. You can also take MFE classes part-time at NYU, CMU, or Columbia (CMU also has a Manhattan campus).

 

[Keith Tan]

Sure, but if another person can tell you how to "do the impossible", it's not all that impossible, is it?

"Doing the impossible" happens through finding the right opportunity that your background makes you a strong fit for, working your butt off there, developing your reputation within and outside the firm, getting people to go to bat for you based on your prior work, and seeing where that takes you.

9x out of 10, the impossible happens when someone else who knows you very very well has the ability and the desire to help you. But the only way for people to know you very very well is for you to work with them, and the only way for that to happen is for you to get a job on the street. That's the catch-22 here, but it is not as difficult as you think to land a backoffice IT job and then work your way up into a quant developer role.

Other people can't tell you how to do the impossible. Through hard work, you have to figure out how to make the impossible possible. My advice is to take a backoffice job and develop a reputation for doing really really good work. I understand this is very frustrating. But if there were a shortcut to land one of the ~5000 quant developer jobs on the street that 20,000 people seem to want (and I have no clue why when tech is booming), those other 20,000 people would have already used those shortcuts.

I see a lot of desire for a high profile job here but I'm not sure the desire for the grunt work of doing your research and working your way into this role is there. I think you have this assumption that these jobs just fall into peoples' laps randomly. While a quick glance at the industry might lead you to think that, if you look more closely, the people landing these jobs have done a great deal of research, have a great deal of sophistication, and have put in a lot of work just to get to the interview. In order to start developing that sophistication and developing that network of people who can go to bat for you, my recommendation is, worst case, take a backoffice IT job and then try to do an internal transfer after two years, assuming you have excellent work. You can also take MFE classes part-time at NYU, CMU, or Columbia (CMU also has a Manhattan campus).

this is great advice. i was a web guy too, landed in backoffice, and after some time of grunt work, grew frustrated, and went overseas to learn and do quant stuffs. if i do go back, i do know the people well enough to get the front office job anytime i want.