Physics Undergrad not sure what to do?!

[Cragga]

Hello, I'm currently in my 2nd year studying Theoretical Physics in an English University, I have read all over the place and still cannot come to satisfyingly informed conclusion so I thought I'd ask here. I have planned on going into finance since I started my degree, but rather than going for something like maths or whatever it may be I chose Physics out of passion. Anyway, I plan on graduating with a 1:1 or 4.0 GPA equivalent as I believe it is in America. My dilemma is on how to go about getting into finance, after all the research I've done I still can't make the conclusion as to whether my chances of becoming a quant are greater by going for a PHD in some mildly relevant area of Physics and then pursuing finance Postdoc or to just apply for some of the top tier financial engineering programs available after I graduate with a Bsc. Would a Bsc in Physics alongside an MFE or Msc in financial engineering as its called in England give me any upper hand over others also studying for the MFE? Also are my chances of getting an MFE with a physics Bsc hindered at all? Wherever I look I seem to find that a background in economics and finance is required.

EDIT: If possible I'm interested in getting an Msc in Physics and THEN applying for the MFE course however I don't know if this would jeapordise my chances at all, if so why?

 

[Andy Nguyen]

Learn programming and then get a job in a bank after your bachelor. After you work there for a year or two, if you don't hate your job with a passion, you can proceed with thinking about graduate school.
Right now, you are planning to spend more time and money in school trying to get into a field that you may hate or not last for long. Try to gain some internship or real experience first.
There is no telling if career prospect is brighter in a few year even if you get a MFE/PhD degree.

 

[Cragga]

Ok well thanks for the input, I have however already learnt a substantial amount of java over a course I took in conjunction with my physics modules, I imagine my knowledge and understanding is transferable to C++ I just need to translate the syntax. My point being that I KNOW I enjoy programming and any sedentary job that has me sitting in front of a computer 15 hours a day programming would suit me perfectly. I know quant is a fairly general term but if the job I end up doing would be anything like whats described here: http://getonthedesk.blogspot.co.uk/2008/01/day-in-life-of-quant.html , i'm fairly certain its for me.

Ultimately my ambitions are fairly hellbent on working in finance and I do plan on getting an internship, but aside from 'quant' are there any other viable paths into finance for a Physics grad? Also like I said before, assuming the market is fairly ripe for quants by the time I start job hunting does a PHD give me a benfit over Bsc/MFE combo?

 

[Andy Nguyen]

As stated by many people, many times, doing a PhD in hope of getting into finance is a really bad move.

It's not a good idea to make a big time/money educational investment based on an article you read that is 5 years old. Things have changed. A lot. For the worse. MFE/PhD is not a ticket to big pay like before.

Many of the "my day as a quant" post is a portraying a glorified snapshot of one of the good days. The rest is stressful and nothing to write about.

Talk to a lot more people who are currently working in finance. Find them on LinkedIn. A lot of people here got MFE/PhD and work in finance. They will tell you that the job is not for everyone, specially those that only lured by the pay package.

Do you have a plan B if finance does not work out? Try to get a programming job anywhere, not just in finance and see how if you can still say "I KNOW I enjoy programming and any sedentary job that has me sitting in front of a computer 15 hours a day programming would suit me perfectly".

https://www.quantnet.com/threads/the-coming-glut-of-financial-engineers.5233/

 

[Cragga]

Well thanks for all the insight, appreciated, and yes I guess plan B was do the PHD if finance didn't work out for me, or maybe go into industry. And my claim was based on the fact that my normal lifestyle is sedentary 15 hours a day in front of a computer screen anyway for as long as I can remember and don't recall ever being sick of it, also I can't imagine working in finance is much more stressful than Physics undergrad/grad but yes I can't argue with what you've said, but hey, if I never try I'll never know and all that good stuff. Also I think my claim on being hellbent about finance was more aimed towards being hellbent on 'trying' finance, not necessarily succeeding.

EDIT: I mean what can be worse than being condemned to lifelong post doctoral hardship with the same non competitive salary I could get for being a manager at McDonalds, might as well try my luck regardless.

 

[Andy Nguyen]

It's good to know the downsides before you decide to do anything.
If you plan to do the MFE degree, just approach the programs and ask for their detailed placement stats of the past several years. There is a reason many of them don't publish the numbers.
There are many ways to make a lot of money doing something you love and are good at and in front of computer 15 hours a day.
Just ask the Facebook, Microsoft, Google guys.

 

[Cragga]

Yes those have also been some of my considerations but I don't know why, I just can't escape the undeniable attraction pulling me towards the financial sector, even with the low probability for success, I'm honestly not motivated THAT much about the salary, I mean anything that beats a post doctoral salary is gonna be a step up for me, and if I happen to like finance in the end then great, but yes thanks very much for opening my eyes to the 'glut of financial engineers', I never really had any exaggerated expectations anyway. Of course I only plan on investing a large sum of money into a MFE program if its considered one of the best, think University of York is the place to in England looking at some stats.

 

[Ken Abbott]

I can't imagine working in finance is much more stressful than Physics undergrad/grad but yes I can't argue with what you've said, but hey, if I never try I'll never know and all that good stuff. ... might as well try my luck regardless.

1. MUCH more stressful. You have no idea.

2. I think "might as well try my luck" is a very, very bad reason for going into the glutted field of quant finance.

 

[Cragga]

Lol its obvious your all out to discourage as many as possible in obviously desperate times, but come on, I'm not going to sound so sincere in a forum post, curiosity got the better of me. I am genuinely interested in 'studying' finance, whether I will like it or not that is for the future. I mean I'm pretty sure a lot of quants before me have ended up going into and enjoying finance out of non directly related first interests. I bet you could count a pretty number of physicists in the bunch, correct me if i'm wrong. I just came for advice on how to become a quant, if I came for advice on how not to be a quant I would have asked appropriately. I don't doubt for a second that its a difficult career path to excel in but come on. . . Motives aside, a good physics grad can either get into quant finance or they can't? By the looks of things you want to make it hellishly clear that an MFE is the next best thing to a Bsc in media studies so I may be swayed to just work in a bank like Andy first suggested without such qualification and see what options are open to me.

Judging by the article posted by Andy I was getting the hint that risk is quite hot at present, correct me if that's garbage but is that something I could get into with physics/programming background?

 

[Ken Abbott]

I bet you could count a pretty number of physicists in the bunch, correct me if i'm wrong.

Judging by the article posted by Andy I was getting the hint that risk is quite hot at present, correct me if that's garbage but is that something I could get into with physics/programming background?

1. There are plenty of physicists, but there are more econometricians, statisticians, and finance people.

2. You might have a hard time convincing a senior risk person that your interest is genuine.

 

[Cragga]

Ah, ok well now you see that's the beauty of only being in 2nd year undergrad, I'm not having to convince any senior risk person that my interest is genuine yet, by the time I actually need to do so I would have studied a ton on whatever it is that I need to have studied in order to convince them that my interests are genuine. I do see that there are links to quite a number of resources scattered around which should be pretty handy.

 

[Andy Nguyen]

You still have time so some reading would help to figure this out.
quantnet.com/guide

 

[Cragga]

Great, out of curiosity would it be possible to learn everything I need to learn from that material as opposed to learning stuff from MFE? I also realise you do an intensive C++ course on this website that I'd be interested in doing probably during a summer.

On a side note I plan on applying for internships at some banks in London, could you give me some sort of idea about what sort of internships I should be applying for specifically? If I apply as a Physics student I'm guessing that the bank would only accept me if they have any such relevant internships, but just to make sure if you have any specific ideas that would be great.

 

[Andy Nguyen]

If you are so inclined, you can self-study anything from books. Many MFE programs use books from that list in addition to the teacher's notes. You will just not have someone to ask when you run into questions. You won't have a degree and career services that support your job search.

As I said before, programming is your key to get a foot in the door. Learn SQL, VBA, Excel, C++/C#, Python or whatever is needed to be useful on day one.
You can apply from firms on this list https://www.quantnet.com/threads/quant-internship-and-graduate-recruitment-a-firms-list.10000/

 

[Barny]

You are naive and deluded. Since you know next to nothing about finance, one can only assume that your only motivation is money, yet you've spent a whole thread denying that. If you want people to help you, you should at least be sincere.

The fact of the matter is, unless you have a PhD from Oxbridge, Imperial or UCL in maths or physics, you will be overlooked for entry level positions UNLESS you are a skilled programmer and/or data analyst and have a track record to prove it. A track record means a git project or three doing something non-trivial that you can point somebody to, or a blog doing some novel data analysis of some open data which has helped you gain real expertise, or success in a kaggle competition etc.

At the moment you are SO average and yet fail to recognise in a glut market you need to be exceptional to prove yourself. The days of a BSc in physics getting a quantitative FO job straight out of uni are over. How many people just like you, with little interest and knowledge of finance beyond the money, do you think apply to a bank every year? Think 1000's.

 

[Cragga]

Yes currently I am as average as it gets, I never claimed to be otherwise. You do not know all of my current intentions, and anyone that said they had no interest in becoming rich would be lying, I never claimed such thing. My main interest certainly is not to become rich, if it was I wouldn't have studied Physics in the first place. Currently my main goal was in fact to get a PHD from said universities, I plan on applying for my Msc at each one of those that you mentioned with a grade average flutuating between high 80% and low 90% it certainly is not an impossibility. In fact let me put it this way to you, probably should have made it clear in the first place. The ONLY situation in which I would seriously consider finance as a career was if I got my Msc from one of said universities, I was just wanting to know if an MFE on top of an Msc from Oxbridge or Imperial in particular would give me a better fighting chance or not? Or would I need to get a PHD, a PHD is going to be no issue for me if its case, you say not to get a PHD if my sole intention was to go into finance. It wouldn't be I would HAPPILY get a PHD and become a Physicist no questions asked. However I would like to study some finance and yes then maybe see whether my interest in finance would be genuine.

EDIT: I would like to read through a primer for the mathematics of financial engineering.
I notice in the sample on amazon the index contains all those key words which I would like to actually understand the concept of before reading into the maths. Like if I see the words bonds or liquidity or whatever it is come up in context to the maths I would understand the maths explained but not the concept behind it all. Are there any books I could read which generally explain all these key words used in finance so I have a foundation to build on with the math intensive books?

 

[Barny]

I read your post but didn't understand it, and I couldn't be bothered to read it again. My biggest tip I can give to you right now is to learn to write properly and not in a conversational style, as you currently do. If you also talk like you write, then I recommend learning how to talk, too.

Finally, do your own research. The reason I can tell that you won't get a job in finance or that you won't do well in an academic career is because you like to be spoon-fed, and when you step out of the confines of undergraduate education your ability to learn by yourself and get things done becomes the most important factor in your success.

Maybe once you've learnt a bit more about finance, by reading at least n=1 books on the recommended reading list that Andy has so helpfully compiled, you can come back and ask some more serious questions, and you might find people more willing to help and the quality of information that people give to you much greater. Good luck.