Why are some quant programs exclusively international students?

[Lukee]

I am looking at the class profiles of some MFE programs and noticed that many have little to no students that attended a US university for undergrad. For instance, UIUC MFE does not have a single US student in their 2023 cohort. Is it just that many more international students apply or is the criteria for admissions different? Any insight here is appreciated

 

[MikeLawrence]

Baruch is the same way. Simply put, they seem to out-class the applicants from the US.

Quant finance requires a rigorous degree to enter, and connections. The top US colleges have that, but they are already based in the US and have better connections to US firms, and US firms recruit on their campuses. The top talent at the rigorous US colleges can often find a job out of undergrad, they don't need to go through the masters to prove themselves. Princeton has a major undergrad FE program and those students intern at 2sig and equivalents all the time.

The top colleges overseas are then the highest caliber students available, but they have much fewer connections in the US. Transferring to a finance position across the pond is notoriously difficult. This leads the top talent to apply to masters programs here in the US so they can make connections, acquire a US based degree, and get an inroad to jobs through the masters program staff and alumni.

It's not that US students can't do it, they are doing it, and the best ones don't need a masters program to do it. That leaves the comparatively lesser US talent to compete with the top overseas talent, and the students from Peking, Lisang (butchered that one, I think, please forgive me), and the Indian IIT's usually win.

This is a large part of why I'm studying abroad, so I can take a couple courses as an undergraduate that my college doesn't even teach graduate students. I need some more rigor to compete. I'm not at a top school, we are 'tier 2' (around 70 in US news and world report, for what that is worth, which isn't terribly much but its better than nothing.

 

[Lukee]

Baruch is the same way. Simply put, they seem to out-class the applicants from the US.

Quant finance requires a rigorous degree to enter, and connections. The top US colleges have that, but they are already based in the US and have better connections to US firms, and US firms recruit on their campuses. The top talent at the rigorous US colleges can often find a job out of undergrad, they don't need to go through the masters to prove themselves. Princeton has a major undergrad FE program and those students intern at 2sig and equivalents all the time.

The top colleges overseas are then the highest caliber students available, but they have much fewer connections in the US. Transferring to a finance position across the pond is notoriously difficult. This leads the top talent to apply to masters programs here in the US so they can make connections, acquire a US based degree, and get an inroad to jobs through the masters program staff and alumni.

It's not that US students can't do it, they are doing it, and the best ones don't need a masters program to do it. That leaves the comparatively lesser US talent to compete with the top overseas talent, and the students from Peking, Lisang (butchered that one, I think, please forgive me), and the Indian IIT's usually win.

This is a large part of why I'm studying abroad, so I can take a couple courses as an undergraduate that my college doesn't even teach graduate students. I need some more rigor to compete. I'm not at a top school, we are 'tier 2' (around 70 in US news and world report, for what that is worth, which isn't terribly much but its better than nothing.

That makes a lot of sense, thanks for the response.

I find myself in a similar situation, I go to a school ranked ~60 in US News rankings. Would you mind if I asked which courses you went abroad for, I'm only a freshman now but plan on eventually taking some graduate courses in the near future to make myself a more competitive candidate.

 

[MikeLawrence]

I haven't gone abroad yet. I will next semester. I plan to take:
Real Analysis,
Numerical Analysis,
Quantitative Risk Management (covering ARCH/GARCH methods, VaR, and other 'standard' measures using real Fin. Data)
Differential Equations

And maybe sub out something for a course on asymptotic if it is offered. Not totally set in Stone, St. Andrews doesn't register for courses until days before the semester starts. The Asymptotics and the QRM courses are what my school won't touch, they cover the rest but with much less rigor.

That makes a lot of sense, thanks for the response.

I find myself in a similar situation, I go to a school ranked ~60 in US News rankings. Would you mind if I asked which courses you went abroad for, I'm only a freshman now but plan on eventually taking some graduate courses in the near future to make myself a more competitive candidate.

I found and article as evidence of my previous post:

Two Sigma Interns Look Back on Summer ‘22

We asked several 2022 interns about their experiences. What did they learn? How did they grow professionally? Read on to find out.

www.twosigma.com

It's about the interns at 2sig's experience last summer. Eight Schools are mentioned, all are top US schools.
Five of the eight students are undergrads at these schools.
One is a masters student.
Two are Ph.D students.

 

[Andy Nguyen]

@Lukee
Looking at this from another angle, since you are a domestic student, you have a better chance getting into a program than many international students with a stronger profile.
I have discussion with many program directors and they all indicate a desire to attract more domestic students. This is not a new trend as far as I remember but I think things are not better in this aspect compared to years ago.

 

[MikeLawrence]

@Lukee
Looking at this from another angle, since you are a domestic student, you have a better chance getting into a program than many international students with a stronger profile.
I have discussion with many program directors and they all indicate a desire to attract more domestic students. This is not a new trend as far as I remember but I think things are not better in this aspect compared to years ago.

"I think things are not better in this aspect compared to years ago"

Meaning, there is still an unmet demand for domestic talent at top schools?

 

[Andy Nguyen]

Meaning the programs have not been very successful of attracting domestic students. I met many young, talented US-born undergrads who would do really well in MFE programs but on papers, they may not measure up against the talents coming oversea as far as GPA, GRE scores go.
@Christian and @Brad Warren are great examples of the talented undergrads I met in person in NYC a dozen years ago.
Definitely lot of gems in the rough out there and many are members here now.

We definitely have this discussion many times

Quant programs as a US citizen

Why are quant programs so filled with international students? Is it even worth to go in a quant program as a US citizen? I would have preferred a MS in Stats/CS but it is too late to apply to those programs, so I am applying to MFEs instead. Just look at BU's students, I only see 3 not from...

quantnet.com

I think if a domestic student look at the student profiles at top programs, they will be quickly discouraged by the impressive profiles of students from Asia but the untold truth is if they apply, they may have a better shot than they thought. I don't think programs can go out and publicly say that but there are effort to recruit more domestic students.

 

[MikeLawrence]

Thanks for sharing that thread. It isn't surprising that this has been discussed before many times, but me and OP weren't here for that discussion. I'm sure it'll repeat again in six months.

You've been here for so long, what is the ratio of new conversations///the same questions asked by fresh faces?? It has to be real low.
Are there any good questions that you feel should be asked which haven't come up recently?

 

[Andy Nguyen]

Thanks for sharing that thread. It isn't surprising that this has been discussed before many times, but me and OP weren't here for that discussion. I'm sure it'll repeat again in six months.

You've been here for so long, what is the ratio of new conversations///the same questions asked by fresh faces?? It has to be real low.
Are there any good questions that you feel should be asked which haven't come up recently?

I believe you and @Lukee bring a lot of fresh perspectives into the discussions here and they are extremely appreciated.
I agree that there are lots of questions that left untold over the years and lots of topics that many people avoid to bring up. I'm glad that new members like you bring it up so we all can benefit.
I've been here from the beginning. In fact, I started QuantNet in 2006 so I have seen thousands of similar questions. I see how the MFE programs and the quant industry have changed over the years. We have more machine learning, AI, data analysis courses and less focus option pricing courses.

I feel like there are tons of good questions that should be asked since this is a huge investment for most people in term of time and money. You want to do thorough research and ask the right questions.

 

[johnnyb]

Hey, I am a domestic student that went to a NY public school— not Tier 1 by any means, but my university is a premier research university with a strong Math and Quant department (research wise). To be honest, I am looking for an MFE because
1. I don’t know if I can get a job at these top quant firms… many job descriptions have “graduate degree in mathematics or financial engineering” requirement. Masters is minimum (or even PhD) for a quant research position. I know, there are exceptions.
2. I have wanted higher education for a while and I feel that it will greatly benefit me down the road in position mobility
3. I feel that there is a whole lot more mathematics to learn and for me to expand upon my capabilities
4. Maybe a shallow point, but I want that fancy school name on my resume and I love education

Update: Please feel free to message me if you would like to discuss more!

 

[Lukee]

Meaning the programs have not been very successful of attracting domestic students. I met many young, talented US-born undergrads who would do really well in MFE programs but on papers, they may not measure up against the talents coming oversea as far as GPA, GRE scores go.
@Christian and @Brad Warren are great examples of the talented undergrads I met in person in NYC a dozen years ago.
Definitely lot of gems in the rough out there and many are members here now.

We definitely have this discussion many times

Quant programs as a US citizen

Why are quant programs so filled with international students? Is it even worth to go in a quant program as a US citizen? I would have preferred a MS in Stats/CS but it is too late to apply to those programs, so I am applying to MFEs instead. Just look at BU's students, I only see 3 not from...

quantnet.com

I think if a domestic student look at the student profiles at top programs, they will be quickly discouraged by the vast majority of students from Asia but the untold truth is if they apply, they may have a better shot than they thought. I don't think programs can go out and publicly say that but there are effort to recruit more domestic students.

Thank you Andy, I really appreciate how you are willing to entertain these questions that are asked so many times. Many of the profiles that I have looked at for international students are without a doubt better than mine will be at the time of graduation so I'm glad to hear that MFE programs are looking for more domestic students.

 

[Lukee]

I haven't gone abroad yet. I will next semester. I plan to take:
Real Analysis,
Numerical Analysis,
Quantitative Risk Management (covering ARCH/GARCH methods, VaR, and other 'standard' measures using real Fin. Data)
Differential Equations

And maybe sub out something for a course on asymptotic if it is offered. Not totally set in Stone, St. Andrews doesn't register for courses until days before the semester starts. The Asymptotics and the QRM courses are what my school won't touch, they cover the rest but with much less rigor.

Best of luck to you with that course load Mike, sounds incredibly rigorous but will definitely be worthwhile

 

[Christian]

Meaning the programs have not been very successful of attracting domestic students. I met many young, talented US-born undergrads who would do really well in MFE programs but on papers, they may not measure up against the talents coming oversea as far as GPA, GRE scores go.
@Christian and @Brad Warren are great examples of the talented undergrads I met in person in NYC a dozen years ago.
Definitely lot of gems in the rough out there and many are members here now.

We definitely have this discussion many times

Quant programs as a US citizen

Why are quant programs so filled with international students? Is it even worth to go in a quant program as a US citizen? I would have preferred a MS in Stats/CS but it is too late to apply to those programs, so I am applying to MFEs instead. Just look at BU's students, I only see 3 not from...

quantnet.com

I think if a domestic student look at the student profiles at top programs, they will be quickly discouraged by the vast majority of students from Asia but the untold truth is if they apply, they may have a better shot than they thought. I don't think programs can go out and publicly say that but there are effort to recruit more domestic students.

Thanks @Andy Nguyen . While at Baruch I was consistently challenged to keep up with my international peers in math courses. So much talent and knowledge out there in the world. Eventually I did a MS Business Analytics & Project Management at Uconn - it was less quantitatively rigorous than MFE, but still *very* international. I liked it, I learned a lot about Indian and Chinese culture from my classmates .

Now in my Systems Science PhD program there's a decent mix of US and international students. It's also much more mathematically rigorous. At this level we all learn from each other.

@Lukee I don't know exactly why quant programs end up like this. US culture and values vs. international culture and values and pathway to opportunity likely has something to do with it. But in the end, apply to the programs that are attractive to you. Personal letters and the full story go a long way in demonstrating your ability and drive to complete rigorous coursework.

 

[Lukee]

Thanks @Andy Nguyen . While at Baruch I was consistently challenged to keep up with my international peers in math courses. So much talent and knowledge out there in the world. Eventually I did a MS Business Analytics & Project Management at Uconn - it was less quantitatively rigorous than MFE, but still *very* international. I liked it, I learned a lot about Indian and Chinese culture from my classmates .

Now in my Systems Science PhD program there's a decent mix of US and international students. It's also much more mathematically rigorous. At this level we all learn from each other.

@Lukee I don't know exactly why quant programs end up like this. US culture and values vs. international culture and values and pathway to opportunity likely has something to do with it. But in the end, apply to the programs that are attractive to you. Personal letters and the full story go a long way in demonstrating your ability and drive to complete rigorous coursework.

Funny thing is that I actually go to UConn right now and they offer a track that would allow me to get the MS in BA & PM with only one additional year. Do you mind if I message you some questions about the program?

 

[Christian]

Funny thing is that I actually go to UConn right now and they offer a track that would allow me to get the MS in BA & PM with only one additional year. Do you mind if I message you some questions about the program?

Wow small world. Absolutely happy to answer your specific questions. Just send me a message.

 

[QuantCoach]

International perspective here: A decent portion of top international talent apply to a MFE degree purely because it allows us to enroll in F1-CPT and F1-OPT status which allows us to intern/work full time in the states (not a lot of other options for us if we want to work in the states). As a result, half of my year didn't even show up for class after the first few weeks (even thought I was in the wrong exam room one time because there were a lot of faces that I didn't recognize since they never showed up to lectures). Domestic US students don't have any issue with visa so a huge benefit of a MFE is gone.