Google stops censoring web for China

[tbbear]

How long have you being out of China? Your opinion might not carry as much weight just because of this.

Whether I am in China or how long I have been out of China is irrelevant to the topic. Understand? Anyone who has some knowledge of China's legal system, culture environment and internet market is qualified to join the discussion. Unfortunately many of you were so fast to claim things you don't know at all.

Again, Google is not pulling out. They just decided not to censor the searches, plain and simple. This is sort of a cat and mouse game.

Whatever you call it.

BTW, you keep avoiding the topic of the hack attack originated in China against Google which is the crux of the problem and why they decided to uncensor the searches.

What do you mean by saying "avoiding"? I didn't talk about that "hack" story because I wanted to be nice, not try to embarrass you by debunking such a empty claim. Google claims attack "originated in China", so what? Has Google provided any evidence before giving China s**t? Or like NY Times reported, the attack was found from Lanxiang (??) vocational high school, under "Chinese military support"? Do you know that millions of Chinese netizens laughed at this narrative? it was like a REALLY bad Disney movie. First China's PLA has its own research institute, college, high school...they don't have to leverage on "outsourcing" to a "vocational high school" . Second vocational high school (???in China is pretty much the place to go for students who are not able to enter the regular high school because of their poor academic performances. All you can learn in vocational high school is just some basic vocational skills to get you a low-paid job.

That is why there have been so much sarcasm about "hacking Google" on China's discussion boards. Chinese netizens joked "Go to Lanxiang if you wanna be a super hacker" (???, ????. See, that was what your mainstream media did to help your beloved searching giant.

BTW, let me know in case you have any more solid evidence. let me know. ^o^ ~~~~

BTW, i'm a quater chinese and my wife is full chinese. So I wouldn't be so fast to claim I don't know the system. I also lived in a communist country until my 20s so I might know more than you think.

It is "Chinese people's loss" if they decide to search in english. It might just be a small cluster of people but these people are losing that capability. That's not difficult to understand, right? And, again, Google is not stopping them.

Frankly, how "much" Chinese you are and whether your wife is full Chinese are irrelevant to the topic. Again, whether you have lived in "a communist country" is also irrelevant. You might know well about your homeland's system, but you failed to show that you know anything about China's system so far despite your family ties.

I don't care whether you have a close bond with Chinese. what i care is whether you can open your eyes to throw your blind ideology away for just two minutes, and learn something about China's law, culture, market... all those FACTS as long as you are interested in the Google story.

When people begin labeling things, you always know either they have no idea what they are talking about and thus they are afraid of a case-by-case discourse, or they are simply not interested in such a discourse.

Thank you for restricting like "a small cluster of people" otherwise we Chinese would think you are kidding. Again, anyone who claims "Chinese people's loss" without knowing anything about China just sounds funny. ^-^

 

[Stefan Zota]

Hey mate, what do you mean several people...only you and Alain. Secondly, I already mentioned this is an academic forum so please cool down. Do you read or plagiarize my statement?

Thirdly, I am not raising a question about white vs black since someone raised the issues. I am implying when ordinary American talk about human rights please mind their own business at home first. USA has turned a blind eye to, or dodged and even covered up rampant human rights abuses on its own territory. While advocating "freedom of speech," "freedom of the press" and "Internet freedom," the U.S. government unscrupulously monitors and restricts the citizens' rights to freedom when it comes to its own interests and needs. The so-called "freedom of the press" of the United States was in fact completely subordinate to its national interests, and was manipulated by the U.S. government. At year end 2009, the U.S. Congress passed a bill which imposed sanctions on several Arab satellite channels for broadcasting contents hostile to the U.S. and instigating violence. Is this freedom of speech or freedom of press? In addition, Iraq people living in Iraq is nothing to do with USA. This is other countries internal issues. Please don't use human rights or reasons to free Iraq people to rob their oil. It is like you come to my house and they you take away my 3D-TV....then you say it is not good for your eyes. I help you to keep it. What the hack! I really suspect USA was the invisible hand for the 911 case. Who trained the Iraq soldiers during the Iran-Iraq war >> USA? Who trained the Taliban >>> USA? Who trained Iran military before >>> USA? It is all about USA wants to sell weapons so they created war everywhere. So, come back to Google in China, please China alone. Chinese people do not welcome such company in the mainland. I don't speak for all Chinese but for someone who knows the culture well from the root....I can speak this out loud.

I mind my words but do you read American history ? Why did you have Marther Luther King and President Lincoln? These two icons were famously linked to human rights because of the history...human rights in USA was or now is still violated in many aspects. You can google and read the reports from your own government. By the way, this thread is about Google. So, we should not go off the track. I will stop here because we are friend and I do not want to embarrass my American friends. I think some of you might be migrants so you do not understand very well about USA history before reading it.....or may be you are not American? Stefan==Swedish!American. Secondly, our interests are quant finance and making money...and chicks (if you have interest after making money) so please put dirty politic aside. You have a great day.

Cheers,

You are all over the place on a clear simple topic. As I tried to explain to you, apparently unsuccessfully, it's not about governments, countries or politics. It's about a company's decision. The company doesn't want to follow censorship requirements of some authorities.
Now, public opinion in "Western world" and not just here, is not favorable for the authorities. Many people express same opinions that were "attributed" on this thread to the "imperialistic" Americans.

Otherwise, you go into all sorts of areas with a clear bias and no end in site. I am sorry but I cannot continue the debate on this thread. Feel free to send me a private message.

Also, I would ask you to not make assumptions about my background. This is a discussion on a topic, we are not trying to guess the birth place of all users.
For your information I have grown up and lived in a communist country, Romania, so I know a few things about censorship.

My last reply on this thread.

 

[tbbear]

Fine. I know you are not American. I am not everywhere except this forum because I have prides to defend what is not right and misleading against China because I am Chinese. We are here to share knowledge and you may need to deal with Chinese Banks or traders one fine day because everywhere is Made in China. If you can get distracted by my statement and you get off the track...not so good huh!

That is what I thought, too.

Surprisingly I noticed so much biased opinion instead of facts towards China when I came to this country a few years ago. Americans are always proud of their "free speech", which is good. But on many international issues, it is not hard to find Americans are pretty "brain-washed" by their mainstream media. The "beauty of free speech" will NEVER exist in this planet unless there are no boundaries both politically and culturally.

That is why Americans keep insulting Chinese on Tibet and Taiwan, and now our internet regulation. that is why I joined the rally with more than 6,000 Chinese, mostly students and professionals, at Foley Sq. on May 4, 2008 to protest those disgusting media distortion (and the mainstream media ignored us and preferred to report a 30-people anti-China rally), that is why some people in this post knew nothing about China but spouting soundbites like "human right", "Chinese's loss", "communist country"... I am sick and tired of same s**t all the time.

Back to the topic, Google and its bandwagon fans didn't talk about Google's not-up-to-par technology in Chinese languages searching and evaded the fact that Google did not make any noise on censorship when it launched business in China. Instead, they introduced a "hack" narrative (newsflash! interestingly they didn't tell people that Baidu was hacked just when Google story emerged), and placed an emphasis on the label of China => a communist country => evil; the censorship => bad; the victim Google => "Don't Be Evil" => noble, and the touching theme, "free speech", "human right" => the common good. Those are old tricks of dirty politics, appealing to popularity, changing the question, slippery slope... widely used by U.S. government and western mainstream media over and over again. Why can't you state the simple facts and let people judge it on its own merits?

Now the conceited is leaving mainland China, I don't know, man, I feel weird...

I am afraid that it will be back after this "show" as long as it wants to lead the internet market globally. Some day we'll know.

 

[alain]

That is why Americans keep insulting Chinese on Tibet and Taiwan, and now our internet regulation. that is why I joined the rally with more than 6,000 Chinese, mostly students and professionals, at Foley Sq. on May 4, 2008 to protest those disgusting media distortion (and the mainstream media ignored us and preferred to report a 30-people anti-China rally), that is why some people in this post knew nothing about China but spouting soundbites like "human right", "Chinese's loss", "communist country"... I am sick and tired of same s**t all the time.

That's the same reason that I could go and support Tibet and Taiwan. Again, the beauty of freedom of speech. We can think and say whatever we want about the gov and still be friends. It's just a difference of opinions.

BTW, if you don't like in US, the doors are opened for you to leave.

 

[Tigga]

that is why I joined the rally with more than 6,000 Chinese, mostly students and professionals, at Foley Sq. on May 4, 2008 to protest those disgusting media distortion

This leads to a very interesting question.

Would you be able to publicly protest the "disgusting media distortion" if you were still in China?
Would you be able to stand at a public place and raise a banner?

I'm pretty sure you can do it in the US and it's a basic right protected by law. Isn't that something you enjoy in the US but afraid to do in China?

 

[alain]

Would you be able to publicly protest the "disgusting media distortion" if you were still in China?
Would you be able to stand at a public place and raise a banner?

I don't know in China but in my country (another communist country), the least that could happen is you get beat down. The worst is that you get gunned down.

 

[Aditya Chitral]

I fail to understand how humans behave.

After China, Australia is asking to censor their results. Why? They had no issues for all these years.

It is alleged that Toyota has faulty cars. And all of a sudden everybody is charged with the same thing. Honda, GM everybody started recalling their cars saying that their cars had problems.

Is it that all these companies/countries did not know what they were doing or just trying to get away by doing whatever they were doing?

(A little off topic but the it is hard for me to accept the entire censoring stuff).

 

[tbbear]

This leads to a very interesting question.

Would you be able to publicly protest the "disgusting media distortion" if you were still in China?
Would you be able to stand at a public place and raise a banner?

I'm pretty sure you can do it in the US and it's a basic right protected by law. Isn't that something you enjoy in the US but afraid to do in China?

I'm giving you "a very interesting" answer: see pics below, taken before Google's HQ in Beijing, China. As the 2nd one shown, those pro-Google students were holding a banner of "Love Google (????".

So, I'm pretty sure i can do it in China and it's a basic right protected by Chinese law. Isn't that something you never heard before? ^o^

if you don't like in US, the doors are opened for you to leave.

first, it is none of your business whether i like or leave.

second, i guess that is your attitude towards people who have different views w/ you.

 

[goodstudent]

Freedom of speech takes time. Think about it, 1.3 billion people that desire wealth and power, with a huge portion of them still uneducated. If you are the leader of these people and have to unite them toward a common goal, what would you do? Let them do whatever they want and believe whatever they want? Probably not, because freedom of speech to 1.3 billion people is a huge expense. Immediate freedom of speech in China = chaos.

One of my friend's mom used to be one of the students who organized the Tiananmen square event. She escaped the country and is now in the US. My friend told me that her mom now regrets what she had done, and that she was selfish and narrow-minded back then.

You really have to have lived in China in order to understand how things work over there. Everything has gotten a lot better in the past two decades. It's no longer the Soviet Union that we read about in history classes. I mean, there is still corruption going on, and you still can't promote democracy or things like that. But seriously, it's been a lot better than what the media in the US has described.

Give China some more time. It hasn't been that long since the "Communist" party took over. It took much longer for the US to gain women and minority rights.

 

[tim]

I find this whole discussion very amusing.

"Taiwan is quieter than before because they need China market...not USA anymore. You will find most Taiwanese friends accept Mainland China "

As a Taiwanese, I sort of agree on the above statement. People always like to go with where money goes. Fortunately/Sadly, the money trend seems heading to China now.

 

[tbbear]

BTW, if you don't like in US, the doors are opened for you to leave ~ such a narrow minded statement from an American (provided he is not holding his green card by now). He lost his debate and he asked you to leave...goodness! This is freedom of speech or not!

Yes, it is very entertaining.

A guy who keeps saying "beauty of free speech" in this thread was so sensitive to my points that he couldn't wait to show me the door. Is that something called "hypocrisy"?

And this guy was so confident about his judgment on China's situation NOT because he knew anything about China's "system" but because he has been living in "another communist country". To me it sounds like someone claims himself a C++ expert simply because he have been using Java for years while actually knowing little about C++.

He was too smart to understand that.

Friend, there is no freedom of speech. I bet you will go to prison or get arrested if you make a comment ...badly on American President. FBI or CIA will take you down from the Union Square. Frankly speaking Tibet is funded by USA to create noise. Taiwan is quieter than before because they need China market...not USA anymore. You will find most Taiwanese friends accept Mainland China except our friends here never stepped out from their own turf. We can forgive them.

I find this whole discussion very amusing.

"Taiwan is quieter than before because they need China market...not USA anymore. You will find most Taiwanese friends accept Mainland China "

As a Taiwanese, I sort of agree on the above statement. People always like to go with where money goes. Fortunately/Sadly, the money trend seems heading to China now.

I didn't mean to be off topic when I mentioned Tibet and Taiwan. I apologize that I have distracted both of you from the topic. I have friends in Taiwan since college, and the person who helped most to my career in States is a Taiwan Chinese. I also happened to watch political commentary shows ( "?????“ and "????”) before. So I do know that Taiwan people have mixed views on China for some reason.

Cheers,

 

[Uncle Max]

Marko, tbbear: how old are you guys?

 

[asdzxc]

An Open Letter From China By Jeff Macke

VERY WELL WRITTEN

Dear American Capitalist Dogs,

Much has been made of our recent decision to defend our populous against the corrupt brainwashing influence of the insidious Google (GOOG) organization. Ugly, defaming terms such as “censorship” and “repressive totalitarian regime” have been used. The truth is much different.

Google was run out of the glorious land of Chairman Mao because the company violated its own core principals. The Bolshevik swine founders of the imperialist Internet firm claim to be about "comprehensive value adding search" and "not being evil". Yet in the name of exploiting the glorious males we allow to access the Internet, Google refused to let our benevolent government tell the company what our citizens wish to read. We used our local knowledge to cull out the Western propaganda which would only serve to disturb our peace-loving populous. The hypocrites at Google objected and insisted on their right to sully our thoughts with propaganda and naked pictures of the harlot actress Lindsay Lohan.

Our people need not read about lies such as the misinterpretation of our Tiananmen Square celebration of peace, bribery in business, and reckless ideas such as allowing families to have more than one male child. We have already stolen Google's search
codes, which we will give to the patriots at Baidu (BIDU) so that our males may have access to $5 copies of Microsoft Office (MSFT) and $1 DVDs of would-be Pig King James Cameron's Avatar.

Don't make us push you back below the 38th parallel in Korea. We've liberated Korea before and we'd be happy to do so again. Seriously. Get off our backs or we'll shove Yum (YUM) and its racist chicken farmer mascot straight into the Pacific Ocean where they will land atop the nearly $1 trillion of US Treasury holdings we will be forced to dump.

Yours in Peace,
China

 

[goodstudent]

Someone needs to close this thread...

 

[Stefan Zota]

I said I won't reply on this thread but it seems it never stops. One last reply.

tbbear and Marko please censor yourselves from make naive assumptions about users on this forum. In fact, since you have both joined this month, spend a little time to browse around and learn something.

Your logic is very limited and perhaps it's a good move to be censored. If you are happy to read only what the government allows, then it's great with me.
If there are at least 0.01% of Chinese population that are blocked from fair access to public information, then you should not talk on their behalf. Some people died for such basic rights, some Chinese as well.

Don't try to bring again the discussion to U.S. It's outside topic of the thread, plus you end up making all random statements anyway.
The fact that you can have such a discussion on a forum in the States, the fact that you can criticize, say whatever you want about any institution, shows some freedom of speech. I am sure that you have much more freedom in China now that Google is getting out, all that U.S. propaganda is gone. So good luck in your quest for positive government censorship.

 

[asdzxc]

I cannot say any better than this. Bravo Stefan Zota!

<spend a little time to browse around and learn something.>
How about 1984 by George Orwell.

<If there are at least 0.01% of Chinese population that are blocked from fair access to public information, then you should not talk on their behalf. Some people died for such basic rights, some Chinese as well.>
I have many friends who'll die for such right!

 

[iddqd]

What happens to users of other Google's services in China? Gmail? Docs? etc?

Not much, most likely. Gmail is still available. Google itself is still available, it just isn't localized to mainland China anymore. If you try to bring up Google now in mainland China it redirects you to google.com.hk. (Try it.. type www.google.com.cn)

I was in Beijing in January and the site functions similarly to Google in the US, you just get different results (i.e. most of them are in Chinese).

 

[echostate]

Google ends 4 years of censoring the Web for China - Yahoo! News

Epic battle for political, economical, ethical reasons?

What is the true reason that Google decided to quit from Chinese market? Business is business, so I guess the leading reason is still the fact that Google is currently not making big money in the Chinese market and it is difficult to beat Baidu in the near future in China. Also, on the other hand, the cost for Google to maintain the business in China is high.

The censorship issue (as well as the attack perhaps originated from China) just provides an excellent opportunity to quit the Chinese market but still maintain a high profile for the company. Without such a great "excuse", what will happen to the stock price if Google decide to quit from Chinese market and close their branch in China?

To put it another way. If Google is dominating the Chinese search engine market and making huge money ... no reason it will quit China just because of censorship. Business is business ...

 

[Aditya Chitral]

What is the true reason that Google decided to quit from Chinese market? Business is business, so I guess the leading reason is still the fact that Google is currently not making big money in the Chinese market and it is difficult to beat Baidu in the near future in China. Also, on the other hand, the cost for Google to maintain the business in China is high.

The censorship issue (as well as the attack perhaps originated from China) just provides an excellent opportunity to quit the Chinese market but still maintain a high profile for the company. Without such a great "excuse", what will happen to the stock price if Google decide to quit from Chinese market and close their branch in China?

To put it another way. If Google is dominating the Chinese search engine market and making huge money ... no reason it will quit China just because of censorship. Business is business ...

Money!!

I read somewhere that last year they had cash problems. Not that they were running out of cash but that they had too much of money and did not know what to do about it and were sponsoring every project that was brought to them. I don't think for few hundred million dollars they would take the trouble of getting into multinational controversy.

 

[Marko]

Remove our comment is not so professional of this forum

Money!!

I read somewhere that last year they had cash problems. Not that they were running out of cash but that they had too much of money and did not know what to do about it and were sponsoring every project that was brought to them. I don't think for few hundred million dollars they would take the trouble of getting into multinational controversy.

Where got freedom of speech since you guys try to remove our comments. Shame!