COMPARE NYU vs UofT

[neptun]

Hello all,

I would like to ask you guys a question about making a choice. Right now, I have an offer both from NYU and UofT's MSc in Finance programs, and having a hard time to decide which school to go. I am well aware that NYU's program is much stronger and more well-known than UofT's, but I have some concerns and maybe you can help me with that.

Let me give you some information about myself. Right now, I am a PhD candidate in math at a Canadian school, and planning to graduate this summer. Once I decided to go into finance, I talked to some people, and they suggested that I can either go for a MSc in Finance programs, or just do some self-studying and find a job afterwards. But they also questioned whether it is really necessary for me to go into a program, as the tuitions for these schools are quite expensive (as you already know ) . They told me that I can learn it by myself in a couple of months. I applied to some programs anyways, as I am interested in the internship portion to gain some experience before applying for jobs. Now I have offer from both programs, and cannot decide what to do due to couple of reasons:

1. People working in this area told me that I don't even need a program, and that I can do it by self-studying. So is it reasonable to go to NYU, whose tuition is about $50K? My goal is to get some sort of "certification", and I feel like UofT can give that to me. Even though UofT's tuition is about $40K, the internship pays $17K of that, is there something like that at NYU's program, too?
2. I already live in Toronto. I visited New York, and I did not like it too much, I don't want to live there in the long run. A couple of years there is fine, I guess, but I do not deal with changing my environment that well.
3. I would like to stay in Canada (I mean, in the long run, after finishing the program), but I also would like to be flexible. If I have to live in US after some point (due to family reasons), I would like to be able to find a job there as well. Some people on these boards suggest that it is much easier to find a job anywhere in the world after graduating from a US school, what do you think about UofT's success in these terms.
4. I don't have extremely high expectations, I don't want to go into trading, or any extremely stressful areas of finance. I am mostly interested in risk management. So, once again, my question is whether NYU would make a huge difference for me or not.

I guess these are my concerns right now. I know it is a bit long message , but I wanted explain all my concerns and thoughts in a clear way. I especially would love to hear from the people who are already working in this area.

 

[Andy Nguyen]

Sounds like Toronto Math Finance program is a better fit for you if your personal preference is Canada.
Yes, you can self study everything by yourself if you have the required self-discipline. A lot of things taught in MFE programs aren't about secret sauce. You can get a lot of books used in these programs from our reading list.

The main reasons young folks from oversea shell out 100K to go to some of these programs are to gain a foothold in the US via a job and by extension, their residency. The easiest way to do that is to obtain a MS degree, and hope the programs provide adequate career support to help them get a job. And hope that the rest will take care of itself.

Obviously, it does not always work out like that. Many, many programs provide little career support and these folks unable to find jobs, will have to go back home with a huge loan on their back.
Things worked out for most folks during the good time (pre 08), but we aren't anywhere in the best of time.

What would you do in the worst case scenario when you unable to find a job after either of this program? What kind of risk can you take?

 

[jondan]

If you prefer to work in Canada then UofT is a better choice, it is cheaper and will allow you to get a job in Toronto. Like Andy said, most people go to US are international students who want to get a job in New York or other international financial centers because a US degree is valued in emerging markets due to its brand name, however I do not see that advantage working in Canada. Canada financial market are dominant by big 5 and other Canadian financial services companies and not big name like UBS, JP Morgan, Credit Suisse.... although they do have a presence there at some degree and most Canadian companies value a Canadian degree. But with a PhD in Maths, I assume you only need to get some financial knowledge and will be able to land a quant job easily, so taking CFA is also another alternative that I do not think is less valuable than going for another Master degree since you are already the "higher calibre" of candidates that apply for entry level quant positions.

 

[Andy Nguyen]

I suspect if you really want to get a job in finance without paying 50K for tuition, the most cost-effective way would be to "network, network, network".
You can buy all the books, self study, go to all the seminar/conference (discount or free for student), and end up with a job similar or better than many MFE graduates.
Obviously, not many people know how to network effectively but it's another story.

 

[DMD]

Just to clairify, you are talking about the MSc. in Finance at Rotman School of Business not the MMF (Master of Mathematical Finance)?

 

[neptun]

Thank you guys for your quick replies. What you say makes sense, especially the importance of networking. That is one of the reasons why I am applying to a program, instead of doing self-study.

By the way, I can take care of the tuition without getting a loan, so it is not that big risk for me, I guess. So the question is: does it worth it? One possible scenario for me is to start working in Canada, but I might have to go to US in a couple of years due to family. Would the school make a big difference in this case?

Just to clairify, you are talking about the MSc. in Finance at Rotman School of Business not the MMF (Master of Mathematical Finance)?

No, I am talking about the MMF program of UofT. The one at NYU is the MSc in Mathematical Finance at Courant.

Sorry for not making it clearer at the beginning .

 

[leonalee]

is it that difficult for Toronto MMF graduate to find front office jobs in New York?!? I got into UofT MMF and some below top 10 MFE program in US but I do not want to work in Canada at all, so I am very confused now, according to the ranking, Toronto MMF is number 10 ahead of NCSU, so if I want to work in US, will Toronto MMF better than NCSU MFin? Btw I am an international student from China

 

[Andy Nguyen]

Right out of graduation, the vast majority of Toronto MMF work in Toronto area, according to their website. Can you think of any good reason why banks in NYC will actively recruit graduates in Canada when they have a very large pool of applicants right in their front door coming out of local programs like Baruch, Columbia, NYU, etc?

Even for programs in the US, location plays a significant role in where their graduates end up. In short, if you want to work in a specific geographical region, try to get into the best programs in that region. They have build a large alumni network there and many of their relationship are with firms in that region.

So, for jobs in NYC, programs in NYC are a better choice than those in Chicago, NC, MN, CA, etc. There is a caveat that depends on which programs you go to in NYC, you may not get any job, anywhere.

 

[jondan]

Yeah, it is very simple, if you want to work in US then go to school in US, if you prefer to work in Canada then go to schools in Canada. Ranking is only for preferences and it includes other factors than just employment statistic, such as prestige, social standing, connections with alumni and friends etc... some of these may or may not translate into sucess of job placement. For example, there are last year graduates from MIT that are still looking for job such as the girl in the video posted earlier in this forum, however being a graduate of MIT is like a brand name that will be with her for life even if she is not able to find a job very soon

 

[Ken Abbott]

FYI, I teach at NYU and I find the students there unusually good at networking. I rarely have to help them find jobs. I echo Andy's sentiment - if you want to work in NYC, go to NYU.