Sales & Trading Summer Analyst Internship Question

[C S]

I'm not graduating with a PhD though, just a 2-year masters degree with about 10 years' experience as a web developer. Do you think any BBs or HFs would still offer me an internship or hire me full-time?

Should I apply for an associate role instead of analyst?

I can tell you this. It's harder than ever to start out as an associate. There's a lot of merit to what people are saying, when they say you should try for an associate role, but you could miss out on some good tech analyst roles.

Regardless of which you go for, you should realize there are people with advanced degrees and experience going for both. I guess you have to balance that with whatever advantages you think you have over them. I'd look back on your life and work experience and focus on the things that make you stand out. If you can't really think of anything or a way to sell yourself, maybe you should reconsider working for an investment bank or hedge fund. Plenty of the people you'll be competing with will have spent effort at learning about the business and have good reasons for wanting to work in finance.

 

[ygmwy]

Absolutely, I'll keep this thread updated with what I've applied to and what offers I get (if any). Just curious but is the Technology Analyst role a back-office role? I'd like to get into prop trading if at all possible (I know from replies I've gotten elsewhere it's a long shot), so probably going to apply to hedge funds.

Seems like you don't know how these financial institutions work at all. You need to at least pretend to be knowledgeable if you want a shot working in them. Good Established Hedge Funds are probably even more selective than Prop Shops, I know some prop shops just want you to be good at mental math, and have an idea about trading. Technology stuff is 90% of the time back-office. But sometimes, they get to sit with traders and help them out with technological issues. Again, a super long shot, but try and find those. In the end, I predict you will have to settle for a back office role since that is where your education is, your experience is, and your knowledge is. You don't have the tools or know-how to go into finance yet.

 

[euroazn]

If you want a technologist role that isn't "back-office" you're pretty much looking at the Strats-desks - these positions are very prestigious and with your experience (lack-thereof) you have pretty much no shot at one.

Back office tech is a dead-end and will not help you get into prop.

 

[MNRC]

I had heard from some members at Wilmott about a developer job where you're booking trades and building out electronic trading systems. I hear this role is accessible to someone with a MSc in CS. Wouldn't this be a front-office role? Couldn't a developer in theory move to a trading role after working and self-studying for a few years at a hedge fund or prop shop that has a flatter structure?

Yep, I'm still learning about this massive industry (finance), but definitely know more thanks to this site and other quant forums!

 

[JulianT]

I had heard from some members at Wilmott about a developer job where you're booking trades and building out electronic trading systems. I hear this role is accessible to someone with a MSc in CS. Wouldn't this be a front-office role? Couldn't a developer in theory move to a trading role after working and self-studying for a few years at a hedge fund or prop shop that has a flatter structure?

I don't believe that anyone should ever say its impossible, since there is a lot of luck involved in many aspects of job hunting. I always view that everything is possible to anyone, however the probability set of success might get infinitely small. To be brutally honest, landing a front office gig with a masters degree in hand, little to no trading experience and at age 40, is going to be extraordinarily hard. As previously mentioned trading is a young man's gig, because it is very taxing. I don't know many traders at my firm north of 50, and those are MDs. So when you think that you will likely have to spend 3-4 years learning the business before potentially transitioning to the front office, it might not be the best proposition. Another consideration, ageism exists, specially on sell side. If you really want it go for it, but know that the odds are stacked against you and I don't think you really have a clear idea of what you are getting into.

 

[MNRC]

I don't believe that anyone should ever say its impossible, since there is a lot of luck involved in many aspects of job hunting. I always view that everything is possible to anyone, however the probability set of success might get infinitely small. To be brutally honest, landing a front office gig with a masters degree in hand, little to no trading experience and at age 40, is going to be extraordinarily hard. As previously mentioned trading is a young man's gig, because it is very taxing. I don't know many traders at my firm north of 50, and those are MDs. So when you think that you will likely have to spend 3-4 years learning the business before potentially transitioning to the front office, it might not be the best proposition. Another consideration, ageism exists, specially on sell side. If you really want it go for it, but know that the odds are stacked against you and I don't think you really have a clear idea of what you are getting into.

Thanks Julian, I appreciate your (and everyone else's) honesty here. Just curious but what do traders typically switch to when they're past 50? Do they become portfolio managers or just outright retire?

To do something like pricing derivatives (what most people seem to be focused on here) are you less prone to early burn out?

 

[C S]

I had heard from some members at Wilmott about a developer job where you're booking trades and building out electronic trading systems. I hear this role is accessible to someone with a MSc in CS. Wouldn't this be a front-office role? Couldn't a developer in theory move to a trading role after working and self-studying for a few years at a hedge fund or prop shop that has a flatter structure?

Yep, I'm still learning about this massive industry (finance), but definitely know more thanks to this site and other quant forums!

Like Julian said, I'm not going to say something is impossible. But I want you to really think about what you're asking. Maybe an analogy will make things easier. You're the manager of a Major League baseball team. Everyone on the team has worked hard to get to where they are. It's not easy to make it several years in and be considered a valuable member of the team.

One day your catcher comes to you. He says, "I'm not happy. All this time I've really been working to be a pitcher, not a catcher. I know what the pitchers do. I practice with them all the time." As the manager, you're worried. You remind him, "You have a very important role on the team. The backup catcher is nowhere near as good as you. You've got a good contract and are respected by your teammates for your unique skills and contributions. Why would you want to be a pitcher, something you have never done, especially at this late stage?"

He tells you, "Yeah I know I have everything good. But I can't get the 10 million dollar contract like a pitcher does. And when we win a game, everyone always praises the pitcher but nobody seems to remember that I called the pitches and planned out with the pitcher how to approach each batter. I basically want money and glory, since as you said, I have everything else someone could want from baseball in terms of respect and accomplishments."

Now what would you say to your catcher?

 

[MNRC]

Hehe, honestly, I'd say to the catcher that if he is truly miserable being the catcher, then he can try pitching but he needs to become a great pitcher really quickly. Then leave him to figure out how he's going to achieve that.

 

[ygmwy]

Ok, I'm going to be brutally honest with you because I think this is something I think you need to hear:

You are in complete denial. You're not listening to what anyone is saying. You can't be 38 years old and all of a sudden one day say "I want to be a trader." You don't know anything about finance, or trading, or how these firms work, so it's obvious that you are only chasing what you think is glory and money without actually knowing what trading or finance really is. Even if I were a technology recruiter at a bank, I would still be surprised at your lack of knowledge of the finance industry and how banks work. (Is this really where you want to go?) The more you talk, the more I question your motivations for wanting to go into trading. The people that want to become traders don't just talk. They move. They go and find out things on their own. They scrutinize the news everyday. (Do you?) They understand how news affects equities, fixed income, and other derivative asset classes. (Do you know the differences?) They actively trade their own money in the open market, (and no, your 5 stock IRA doesn't count). They demonstrate not only an interest in trading, but also an aptitude for it. I really don't know who put the idea in your head that you can be a prop trader, or a trader at all without knowing the first thing about trading. You seem to have an oversimplified view of it, and demonstrate neither the aptitude, the interest, the knowledge, nor the credentials--only a naive fandom of trading. You are a wannabe, and that's about it.

Besides getting extremely lucky, there is only one way I can see you trading, that that's if you open up a serious broker account and trade on your own. If do well enough on your own, then at least you'd have something to approach employers with. But right now, you have nothing. Even if you were 22, no one I know would hire you.

If this is seriously your dream and you want to work hard, don't talk so much and just prove it. The world of trading is cold and unforgiving.
If I were you, I would start here for equities: http://www.marketwatch.com/game/
and here for forex and automated trading strategies: http://www.metaquotes.net/
Open a demo account and play around with it a little bit. Others can recommend other ideas for getting started in trading.

 

[euroazn]

If you want to see what a trader "does" at a bank, this is a pretty good simulation: http://live.marketsims.com/TSDemo/

 

[JulianT]

Thanks Julian, I appreciate your (and everyone else's) honesty here. Just curious but what do traders typically switch to when they're past 50? Do they become portfolio managers or just outright retire?

To do something like pricing derivatives (what most people seem to be focused on here) are you less prone to early burn out?

If they stay on the sell side, management, sales, origination, mostly anything with lower stress levels. That being said, by 55, most are out the door, and on the boat (at least at my shop).

Pricing derivatives is no less stressful too because you are live quoting on a sizable deal, where are in competition, and you need to win because you need to make your targets. You are trading it after all. The models for pricing most instruments are well established, its a matter of using them. If you are in sales you are managing the link between your traders and your clients and trying to mark up/do flow so you can hit your target. If you are trading you are trying to do flow, but mostly generate PnL, so you can make your targets.

Front office churns 10% of workforce every year at many sell side firms. Its a perform or die world.

 

[Keith Tan]

Thanks Julian, I appreciate your (and everyone else's) honesty here. Just curious but what do traders typically switch to when they're past 50? Do they become portfolio managers or just outright retire?

To do something like pricing derivatives (what most people seem to be focused on here) are you less prone to early burn out?

some turn to teaching or consulting, some become management level, some trade in their own account, some hire people to code for them. they're still a button away from "Buy" or "Sell".

 

[C.Y.]

Thanks, I keep hearing different things about age--that banks don't care as long as you know your stuff and can do a good job or that age is a significant barrier to entry. I guess in this case it's because analyst / associate positions are designed for younger applicants. The irony is that I had wanted to work in finance for almost 10 years but having majored in anthropology in college and now with web development experience nobody was going to hire me for a quant trading role. So, I had to go back to school to take prerequisite courses, study for the GRE, and get into a masters program at a target school. Throw in a couple of deaths in the family and you end up applying for internships at 38

Getting hired for a technology / developer sounds like the easiest route in my case. My cousin is also interested in working in quantitative trading--either as a trader or researcher. He's about 27. What degree would you recommend that he pursue? Is a MFE the best bet in his case?

Hey MNRC,

I admire your willingness to change carriers at your age. If you really want to become at trader, then by all means go for it, but you have to ask yourself if you really want to do it and be able to show it in interviews. A big point would be if you spoke about your IRA brokerage accounts or what trades you have done personally, or even what kind of arbitrages you do not related to the market (i.e. you took a 3 year lease on your apt thinking rents would increase, then you moved out your 2nd year to sublease at a profit). This would show your interest. Also, many people interviewing you would be younger than you, so the responsibility is on your to show that you're willing to work very hard, with no task too small. Sometimes, older professionals get a bad reputation of being unwilling to take on lowly tasks, but as an entry level trader assistant this would realistically your way to learn (just like every other trader in the world learned in part from doing the crap jobs). Hope this helps.

 

[MNRC]

Hi Everyone,

I attended an employer presentation by Citi yesterday on campus. The speaker was a managing director of global capital markets. He said he majored in engineering as an undergrad, worked as an engineer for 10 years then applied to Citi and was hired. However, I think he applied at 32 and I am 38. He ascended the ranks pretty quickly and made MD within 10 years. I spoke to him as well as some folks in Sales & Trading and a person in HR. They told me that with 10 years' web development experience and a masters in computer science I should apply via my school (a target). If they offer me a role it would be as a summer associate. If they hire me full-time then I'd get some kind of baseline training first, then they'd decide where to send me. The HR person seemed pretty enthused when I told him that I'm interested in trading, have traded in my IRA account online for 10 years and gave me his email address. I didn't see him offer his email address to any other student (mostly just undergrads), so maybe that is a good sign.

I'll be applying for their summer associate internship this month. Will update this thread with the results.

Also, many people interviewing you would be younger than you, so the responsibility is on your to show that you're willing to work very hard, with no task too small. Sometimes, older professionals get a bad reputation of being unwilling to take on lowly tasks, but as an entry level trader assistant this would realistically your way to learn (just like every other trader in the world learned in part from doing the crap jobs). Hope this helps.

Yes, I did hear about this! For example, being asked to get more senior employees coffee and lunch. It's no problem for me. I worked for a real estate investor once. His net worth was over $10 million and every morning he would take a broom and sweep the sidewalk outside his store. He had an excellent work ethic and in spite of always being the richest guy in the room no job was ever too menial for him. The only thing I am worried about is whether I can memorize all of their lunch orders. I heard traders do not like to see you writing their lunch orders down.

 

[C S]

Yes, I did hear about this! For example, being asked to get more senior employees coffee and lunch. It's no problem for me. I worked for a real estate investor once. His net worth was over $10 million and every morning he would take a broom and sweep the sidewalk outside his store. He had an excellent work ethic and in spite of always being the richest guy in the room no job was ever too menial for him. The only thing I am worried about is whether I can memorize all of their lunch orders. I heard traders do not like to see you writing their lunch orders down.

I think you got the wrong idea about what CY meant by "menial task". They're not going to make you do this at a BB or a well-established HF (at least I've never heard that). They're too professional for that. You're going to do real work as an intern. It's not about getting people's lunches and coffee. Menial tasks you'll be asked to do will include things like cleaning data, going through log files, automating some tasks, or basically doing something that someone more important doesn't want to do but is still crucial.

And believe me, if you did something silly while doing one of these menial tasks (like parsing some file incorrectly because you forgot it has an extra newline at the end), you'll hear about it.

Anyway, good luck with your applications.

 

[euroazn]

Hi Everyone,

I attended an employer presentation by Citi yesterday on campus. The speaker was a managing director of global capital markets. He said he majored in engineering as an undergrad, worked as an engineer for 10 years then applied to Citi and was hired. However, I think he applied at 32 and I am 38. He ascended the ranks pretty quickly and made MD within 10 years. I spoke to him as well as some folks in Sales & Trading and a person in HR. They told me that with 10 years' web development experience and a masters in computer science I should apply via my school (a target). If they offer me a role it would be as a summer associate. If they hire me full-time then I'd get some kind of baseline training first, then they'd decide where to send me. The HR person seemed pretty enthused when I told him that I'm interested in trading, have traded in my IRA account online for 10 years and gave me his email address. I didn't see him offer his email address to any other student (mostly just undergrads), so maybe that is a good sign.

I'll be applying for their summer associate internship this month. Will update this thread with the results.

That sounds awesome, best of luck!

 

[MNRC]

I think you got the wrong idea about what CY meant by "menial task". They're not going to make you do this at a BB or a well-established HF (at least I've never heard that). They're too professional for that. You're going to do real work as an intern. It's not about getting people's lunches and coffee. Menial tasks you'll be asked to do will include things like cleaning data, going through log files, automating some tasks, or basically doing something that someone more important doesn't want to do but is still crucial.

And believe me, if you did something silly while doing one of these menial tasks (like parsing some file incorrectly because you forgot it has an extra newline at the end), you'll hear about it.

Anyway, good luck with your applications.

Thanks for the heads up. Good to know I won't have to be the delivery person getting lunch! I actually think it helped yesterday to be a non-traditional student. HR people actually remembered me and I received an email today asking for my resume. Keeping fingers crossed.

 

[C.Y.]

I think you got the wrong idea about what CY meant by "menial task". They're not going to make you do this at a BB or a well-established HF (at least I've never heard that). They're too professional for that. You're going to do real work as an intern. It's not about getting people's lunches and coffee. Menial tasks you'll be asked to do will include things like cleaning data, going through log files, automating some tasks, or basically doing something that someone more important doesn't want to do but is still crucial.

And believe me, if you did something silly while doing one of these menial tasks (like parsing some file incorrectly because you forgot it has an extra newline at the end), you'll hear about it.
.

Yep, agreed with C S 100% about the meaning of my comment, I wasn't referring to getting coffee or placing lunch orders. By crap tasks, I meant launching morning risk reports, doing end of day P&L, figuring out trade breaks, booking trades, correcting other traders mis-bookings, etc. I think you can learn a lot from all these tasks. For example, if you can calculate the P&L effectively and understand the figures, it helps you learn how the desk is making money. If you are good at booking derivative trades, you actually will learn about derivatives pricing and sensitivities (i.e. if your vega is not as expected, then maybe your booked maturity is incorrect or you chose the wrong model, etc). Good luck.

 

[MNRC]

Yep, agreed with C S 100% about the meaning of my comment, I wasn't referring to getting coffee or placing lunch orders. By crap tasks, I meant launching morning risk reports, doing end of day P&L, figuring out trade breaks, booking trades, correcting other traders mis-bookings, etc. I think you can learn a lot from all these tasks. For example, if you can calculate the P&L effectively and understand the figures, it helps you learn how the desk is making money. If you are good at booking derivative trades, you actually will learn about derivatives pricing and sensitivities (i.e. if your vega is not as expected, then maybe your booked maturity is incorrect or you chose the wrong model, etc). Good luck.

Ah, ok. This stuff I think of as laying down the foundations of a career, so it doesn't seem menial at all, but pretty crucial. Thanks again for all the input and I'll update this thread if I get any offers! If I succeed maybe it will give other non-traditional aged people hope of breaking into finance in the future.

 

[MNRC]

Ok, so far I've applied to everything that is remotely related to quantitative trading and research through my school's job listings. Interview-wise, I've only heard back from Signal Technologies, but not Citigroup or any of the BBs. I'm looking at good HFs and prop shops as well, but they don't recruit directly through my school, so going to try just applying directly on their website. From the way it looks I think prop trading firms are more willing to consider non-traditional job candidates.