So how much does a master's GPA matter?

[GoIllini]

See the one thing about being a financial programmer that gets to me is that I don't stick on any one language for too long, since I use whatever language the class requires. Did some C++. Did some Java. Was able to code 4000 lines of Java in two weeks at one point last May. Now forgot most of the syntax as well.

That's fine; as long as you're good with pseudocode for imperative programming and know some of the semantics (implementation details), you're ok.

I understand the whole idea behind algorithms and Big O notation and all of that stuff (I understand what pointers do, as well), and the only thing I haven't really covered is micro-managing the memory allocation.

This is a strong statement to make in an interview, because they will follow it up with a question that involves using the master theorem to solve- something even most CS majors learn and forget- and then they will ask you to prove something is NP complete. I would recommend you also practice hedging a little on the forums, too. As a former TA of three semesters for the algorithms course after yours', I can probably get away with saying, "Yes, I'm aware of that" when it comes to order-of-complexity, and handle whatever network solving, optimization, or graph problem they want to throw at me, but unless you REALLY know what you're doing, it never hurts to hedge a little.

The biggest issue I have is the syntax of the program. All the time, I think in terms of "what do I want to do" but not "how do I tell this to the computer"

That's fine; that's why most IDEs have completion lines (IE: concat comes up with you type "String." in a Java IDE) these days. If you're at a firm that's still testing for that stuff, I really hope you like working with VI, Emacs, or pico.

And the problem there is that either you know the syntax of that particular language, or you don't. For instance, Analytic Partners' use of SPSS really gave me a nagging feeling because I know that Google and the hedge funds use R as their statistical language (I've heard SAS as well).

Again, for programming, priority #1 is algorithms and pseudocode. Priority #2 is semantics. That's 90% of it. Less than 10% depends on proper spelling and syntax.

Furthermore, another issue I have with this whole programming issue is this:

There are people out of MIT who have studied computer science and have 3.8 GPAs and the like. What the heck is someone who programmed on the side with their engineering majors going to do about holding a candle to that? At which point am I supposed to say "I didn't study computer science. I studied OR and statistics."?

1.) A lot of bozos graduate from the top-five CS schools- MIT, CMU, Stanford, Berkeley, and Illinois, and a 4.0 GPA doesn't mean anything in computer science when it comes to competence.
2.) I've also met a lot of smart programmers who were stats majors.
3.) The biggest correlation with programming competence that I've seen is experience.
4.) Get some practice as a programmer and you'll be just fine.

 

[Stefan Zota]

GoIllini provided some good advices especially the one regarding "hedging your statements".

If you say something like "I know the O stuff" in a interview, you are very likely setting yourself up for a "massacre". Algorithm complexity is a broad field. Starting from high school, with a CS background, there were at least 5 classes focused here.
And of course GoIllini is correct, unless I spend a few days perusing Cormen, I remember about 10-20%. As a programmer you don't use the formal analysis of algorithms every day, it is not something easy to remember. There are also "formal proofs" in which you show mathematically that the algorithm produces the right results. Almost all CS grad student (not doing a thesis in formal advanced analysis) will need to prepare, won't just recollect out of the blue the complexity of Roy Floyd algorithm

Base idea is that you should avoid making such blunt statements. You can say that you studied it in ... , you've done this project where you used ... , you got a prize at an Olympiad which had problems in algorithm complexity ... , you have some experience with it, but you have used it limited in practice etc.

 

[IlyaKEightSix]

Wow! Thanks for the advice...because yeah...one algos course. And the syntax made it nightmarish. But the actual solving of the mathematical parts of that were really fun ^-^.

That said, if syntax doesn't matter, but coming up with the algos does...I'd actually like to try my hand at this. The "lost in translation" from human to computer speak is what gets me. If the job is coming up with the procedure, where do I send a resume?

 

[Stefan Zota]

Wow! Thanks for the advice...because yeah...one algos course. And the syntax made it nightmarish. But the actual solving of the mathematical parts of that were really fun ^-^.

That said, if syntax doesn't matter, but coming up with the algos does...I'd actually like to try my hand at this. The "lost in translation" from human to computer speak is what gets me. If the job is coming up with the procedure, where do I send a resume?

Don't worry about syntax this is not the core characteristic of a language.
First you need to know the category and half a dozen strengths. For instance, LiSP is a functional language that implements precisely the lambda closures however it also offers internal list processing features. It offers option of procedural vs functional language. It has limited OOO features.

After that, you will probably start getting questions. If they are looking for experience in specific language, then they will delve into some details (e.g. how do you support multiple inheritance in Java). If this is not the core interview, then they might ask: what do you know about inheritance in Java.
Only a small percentage of interviews will require explicit code snippets.

 

[GoIllini]

This is reality...
Masters in Financial Engineering (MFE) - Baruch College

Yes, it's a good program. And I'll be the first to say that most state schools are underrated. *Cough, Illinois Engineering too, cough*

But since you guys do so well with recruiting, you needn't go out of your way to promote the program; it speaks for itself. When I speak with a programmer from Dartmouth, he's actually more intimidated by me than I am by him. When you defend Baruch so heavily, it puts us under the impression that you wanted to go to Columbia (no relation to me) but had to go to Baruch.

If you're working right now, where you landed after graduation and your work product speaks for itself. Chances are, because most banks are a lot less comfortable with hiring people out of state schools than they are with the brand-name schools, you're probably also a whole lot more competent than your coworkers. No need to have a chip on your shoulder or be intimidated of the brand name schools- if anything, your coworkers are more intimidated, because they believe you're probably one of the smartest students from your school.

The only problem, though, is that if you promote Baruch too heavily, it looks like you have a chip on your shoulder. If you say that "Baruch's a great school and produces competent financial engineers," that, and a quick glance at the rankings should be enough.

 

[IlyaKEightSix]

Yeah, I'm only getting one explicit master's degree.

 

[GoIllini]

Yeah, I'm only getting one explicit master's degree.

Considered an Econ PhD? You certainly have the background for it. Once you get into a top ten program, it's a pretty easy route to becoming a Quant (much easier than the Math PhD route), and you've always got a huge demand for professors in academia as a backup (unlike with Math or Physics).

 

[IlyaKEightSix]

Once? Didn't even consider it, considering I don't want to become a professor. As for Top 10, let's be realistic, I'm not going to get admitted to the top 10 schools for anything with a 3.32 undergrad GPA and less than 800 GRE quants, as close as they are (770). Right now, I'd like to find a job if I could, and only go for a PhD if absolutely necessary.

 

[GoIllini]

Once? Didn't even consider it, considering I don't want to become a professor. As for Top 10, let's be realistic, I'm not going to get admitted to the top 10 schools for anything with a 3.32 undergrad GPA and less than 800 GRE quants, as close as they are (770). Right now, I'd like to find a job if I could, and only go for a PhD if absolutely necessary.

You say that right now.

After 2.5 years of 70 hours/week, academia looks a lot more tempting than it used to. Assistant Econ Prof salaries start either in or very close to the six figures, and there's no postdoc or other work required after you get a PhD- you go straight into teaching.

I'm not saying I'd want to make a career out of academia, but if I had a PhD, I'd at least have the option of "taking a vacation to spend 30 hours/week teaching and researching" for a couple years if I got tired of the long hours. If I transferred to another company because I was working too hard, I'd look disloyal to the firm. If I spent two years as a visiting prof at one of the decent universities out there on the other hand, I'd be seen as doing my civic duty and probably welcomed back with open arms if they had room.

I'm not saying I'd want to trade in six years of my life for an Econ PhD, but those three letters carry a lot of perks and options. You have more career opportunities in industry (including economic modeling), and again, there's always a shortage of Econ and Finance professors.

 

[Andy Nguyen]

Right now, I'd like to find a job if I could, and only go for a PhD if absolutely necessary.

What kind of salary would you be willing to take a job at this stage?

 

[kwlmy]

What PhD program are you thinking of? Physics, math? And what is Top 10 for you?

Once? Didn't even consider it, considering I don't want to become a professor. As for Top 10, let's be realistic, I'm not going to get admitted to the top 10 schools for anything with a 3.32 undergrad GPA and less than 800 GRE quants, as close as they are (770). Right now, I'd like to find a job if I could, and only go for a PhD if absolutely necessary.

 

[IlyaKEightSix]

What kind of salary would you be willing to take a job at this stage?

Enough to live in a decent apartment in NYC? I know the recruiter I was speaking with has been tossing around low six-figure numbers, but in all honesty, this'll be my first job.

I just want it to have some R coding and analytical work involved, and I'll honestly take whatever an employer will be willing to pay someone out of school with a master's.

At this point, money isn't an issue for me so long as I can pay my necessities (rent, food, student loans, internet access).

It's the experience of doing something that adds to the bottom line of a company that matters to me, as well as building up a resume that I'm someone who's fluent in technical and analytical thinking, rather than another businessperson who's like an alien at a quant shop or Google.

As for a doctorate, we'll see what the working world brings me. Certainly if I could be using R as part and parcel of my job for the next couple of years, that'd be nirvana.

As for my programming, this semester may actually give me the challenge I've been craving. My interpretation of data II course has a syllabus going over a ton of numerical methods algos in R, as well as MCMC (monte carlo markov chain) simulation stuff, Bayesian statistics as well.

Certainly lots of stuff I've never seen before. Should be fun.

---------- Post added at 11:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:01 PM ----------

What PhD program are you thinking of? Physics, math? And what is Top 10 for you?

PhD program: Applied math/stat/IEOR/quant finance

At stony brook, all of that is under one roof. At Lehigh, I'm applying for an IE PhD since there's no explicit OR or quant finance PhD, even though that's what quite a few IE doctoral candidates are doing. One of my favorite professors is doing info theory, which seems to be intimately related with the top quants. I know Ed Thorp had much to do with it since he hung out with Claude Shannon and John Kelly, who developed the whole idea.

 

[Andy Nguyen]

Would you turn down a job that affords you living necessities in some outer borough of NYC? Say renting a studio in Brooklyn, Queens, or even NJ with a 60K-70K year salary doing something remotely relevant to your skillset?

Or would you hang on to get that dream job whatever that is?

 

[IlyaKEightSix]

Brooklyn gives me the willies. Queens I'd go for.

As for my skill set, there are quite a few things "remotely relevant". I have a bit of background in basic finance, in statistics, in operations research, in quite a few different things. But I want to do something statistical and quantitative, with upside and/or mobility potential to a better position, in another firm if need be.

I know Google uses R as its statistical programming language, and I think for me to close that door just to get some water-treading position right now rather than pursuing a doctorate (assuming I get the admission) would, in my opinion, be shooting myself in the foot.

My line in the sand is whether or not a position still has me on the track to my dream jobs. If working at a certain place will have the opportunity cost of me missing my home run, then generally, I will not look upon it favorably.

 

[Dibbs]

My line in the sand is whether or not a position still has me on the track to my dream jobs. If working at a certain place will have the opportunity cost of me missing my home run, then generally, I will not look upon it favorably.

And what exactly are your criterias to saying a job will make you miss your homerun? You can never predict what will happen. I think at this point, you should just try and settle with a job that makes you happy and put the idea of a "dream job" aside. And don't forget, this will be your first job, and please, do not worry, there will be upside for you.

 

[Andy Nguyen]

If I were you, I would just go for a job. Any job. Better if they are in finance and with relevant skill. And work my way around/up/sideway when I make enough money to pay my student loan, bill and have a more realistic view of the working world out there.

If there aren't a single company that does what I want to do, then I'll open my own company to do it.

Then again, I'm not you so I can only wish you the best of luck making your own destiny. You live and die with your decision, like everyone else.

 

[IlyaKEightSix]

My dream job?

Head of Adwords at Google or hedge fund manager of a top quant fund =P. I like my numbers and want to fling numbers for a living as well as hog the spotlight.

Joe Perella (co-founder of Perella Weinberg, Lehigh alum, and self-made billionaire) nicknamed me Sergei Brin, so I want to live up to that =X.

So yeah, the fact that by my age, Jim Simons had his PhD, and Sergei Brin founded Google tells me that I need to find something where I'm not going to be simply going through the motions, but always learning something that would keep me going to one of those sorts of "out of this world" positions.

Yes, I'm ambitious. No, my undergrad transcript might not show it. In the meantime, I still have to play my cards carefully so as to not be railroaded to mediocrity and a working poor position being a nameless cog in some giant drone house.

I'm not sure if I'm *too* scared of that fate, though.

 

[IlyaKEightSix]

Well, analytic partners said no. Once again, completely quiet on this end.

The new semester is shaping up to be interesting. One course is an out and out "become an uber R programmer" course, one is on financial time series (time to outwork all the MSMFs...again), one is on multivariate statistical analysis, and the last one is the theory of statistical inference, which I need for the master's exam -_-...

I just wish I could get my first full time paid offer here...it seems there are far fewer positions for number crunchers than there are people who want them, at least it seems to me.