Undergraduate Advice

[MikeUF]

Hello all! I have looked around the forum quite a bit and searched for an answer to my question but nobody seems to have the situation I am in.
Here it goes:
In the fall, I will be a freshman at the University of Florida. I have aspirations of going into a Top 5 Quant program and I feel that I am at a disadvantage going to UF. 1) Is this true?
Another question I have is in regards to my current undergraduate plan. I am going to be a Finance major and then have a second major. Would it be better to have a Mathematics or a Statistics major? It appears that the Mathematics program covers all of the necessary math. The Statistics major covers the Math as well and includes a programming requirement in the major. Regardless of the Mathematics or Statistics major, I will be getting a Actuarial Science minor because I will only have to take one more class. 2) Is this adequate preparation for entrance into a Top 5 school directly after graduation?

Thank you so much for any input.
-Mike

 

[Connor]

Welcome Mike

Whether going to UF disadvantages you or not is hard to say and doesn't really matter for you at this point. Best thing is to not worry about it and focus on doing well, something you can control.

You will definitely need that second major as a finance major alone will not be enough.

I would go with statistics and just make sure you cover all the program prereqs (found on the programs website and also discussed on this forum). For example, a quick look and it seems you aren't required to take stochastic calculus or partial differential equations which you will need to take both.

Getting experience programming is very important, whether what you would get from the statistics major is enough is hard to say. Looking at the UF website, you only have to choose 1 programming elective which won't be enough.

You may want to consider taking more math and computer science classes as you really can't have enough math.

---------- Post added at 11:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:45 AM ----------

Strong letters of recommendation are also important.

For this I would recommend 2 things: a few summer internships during your 4 years preferably in finance or something related (or something requiring similar skills such as statistics, programming, etc) and secondly, sometimes undergrads are able to work with professors doing research (research experience with professors helps you acquire skills and if you do a good job you have a recommender)

 

[MikeUF]

Thank you so much, Connor. With the Math pre-reqs. I am a bit confused. I was reading the Baruch's pre-reqs. and they just said 2 semesters of Calc, 1 of probability, and 1 on linear algebra, but you said all the way to PDEs and Stochastic Calc. Would Stochastic process be enough? Sadly, other than Stochastic Process and Elements of PDEs are the only classes I can take as an undergrad that come close to what you suggested. UF will not allow a student to "take" a graduate level course, you can only "audit" it.

 

[Connor]

Take a look at Berkeley's prereqs to get an idea: http://mfe.haas.berkeley.edu/academics/prerequisites.html

Take what math you are able and allowed to take, that's all you can do. But remember that your application will be up against people with degrees (possibly masters) in math and engineering so just take as much math as you can.

A quick look at the UF undergrad catalog, here are a few of the higher level math and stats classes I would recommend (what I would take). Just to give you an idea as these include some of the prereqs but also go beyond:

STA 4210, STA 4321, STA 4502, STA 4702, STA 4821, STA 4853

MAD 4401, MAP 4102, MAP 4341, MAS 3114

 

[MikeUF]

Ok, that makes more sense. I went to Columbia's page and they just gave sample problems and I could do a few of them...it just didn't seem right. I'll sit down and cross reference topics from that page with classes at UF. Thank you, Connor. You've been a lot of help. Any other suggestions, by the way?

 

[Stefan Zota]

Thank you so much, Connor. With the Math pre-reqs. I am a bit confused. I was reading the Baruch's pre-reqs. and they just said 2 semesters of Calc, 1 of probability, and 1 on linear algebra, but you said all the way to PDEs and Stochastic Calc. Would Stochastic process be enough? Sadly, other than Stochastic Process and Elements of PDEs are the only classes I can take as an undergrad that come close to what you suggested. UF will not allow a student to "take" a graduate level course, you can only "audit" it.

Prerequisites are a requirements but they are not sufficient. In other words, programs won't put a broad list of prerequisites. It allows many applications and flexibility of the applicants. They can show their own strength in academia, work experience etc.

People with different backgrounds will apply for MFE. As Connor mentioned, quite a few of them have been previously through Grad School so the admission is not easy. Top programs admit students without grad-school experience, but they need to be much stronger in Math than prerequisites.

 

[MikeUF]

Oh, alright. What about if I did a major in Industrial Engineeringwith like a minor in Math and a minor in Stat? Would that be a better starting point than a dual Math/Finance double major?

 

[Andy Nguyen]

Whatever you decide to do, there is zero guarantee that you will be admitted to your top MFE program of choice. Competition will be harder then and so you are always playing catch up.
Do you ever think about the possibility of not getting admitted into any MFE program? What would you do with all the customized course choices that are then of limited use?
May as well just get a broad education, study what you enjoy most. Who knows, you may discover gardening is your passion.
Undergraduate education is meant for discovery a broad selection of career choice, not to specialize. You have plenty of time in grad school for that.

 

[MikeUF]

Whatever you decide to do, there is zero guarantee that you will be admitted to your top MFE program of choice. Competition will be harder then and so you are always playing catch up.
Do you ever think about the possibility of not getting admitted into any MFE program? What would you do with all the customized course choices that are then of limited use?
May as well just get a broad education, study what you enjoy most. Who knows, you may discover gardening is your passion.
Undergraduate education is meant for discovery a broad selection of career choice, not to specialize. You have plenty of time in grad school for that.

I understand that completely. I really enjoy doing math and could see myself doing that as a career, as well as Industrial Engineering. FE or QF appears to be the combination of my love for Math and Finance. I'm the kind of student that would spend an exuberant amount of time in undergraduate because I want to get like 3 degrees. I need something that will increase my chances of getting into a top quant school but even if I don't I'll still posses a skill set for something I love to do.

On a side note, thanks again everybody for your input. It is much appreciated.

 

[Connor]

I second what Andy says.

The thing about undergrad finance majors (in my opinion) is that they (1) are too easy, (2) include a lot of other general business courses so don't require taking many actual finance courses, (3) don't prepare you for a number of finance roles, and (4) finance is easy to learn compared to math/physics/engineering and some firms/banks are willing to take the time to teach finance to smart people (meaning you don't even need a degree in finance).

I recommend double majoring and getting a few minors if you have the time and motivation. Double major in Math/Stat and then something that interests you (engineering/computer science/physics/finance/etc), this gives you a good background for a MFE but also gives you skills that can be applied to other careers.

Regarding your question on Industrial Engineering, if you did that I would still recommend double majoring in stat/math.

If you are really unsure exactly what you want to do right now, but what to explore a few things to see how they interest you then put together a few different major scenarios.

For example, you could do Fin/Stat, IE/Math, or CS/Stat. Look at the required courses, course prereqs and sequences and map out what courses you would take over 4 years for each combination. Then look for common courses, and say start out doing IE/Math but take a few Fin, Math, CS courses early on so that you can get a taste for them. This allows you to try out different things but hopefully will help you avoid falling behind on course prereqs.

 

[MikeUF]

Alright, that sounds good. I want to do an Actuarial Science minor and with that I only have to take 1 more class to have a Stat minor. Luckily, I completed almost my complete AA in high school so I will be able to fill my schedule with those classes. Thanks for all the input. This forum has been a lot of help. I went out and bought some of those books on being a Quant from that Master Reading List. Really interesting stuff.

 

[Sory]

Very good answer !

Whatever you decide to do, there is zero guarantee that you will be admitted to your top MFE program of choice. Competition will be harder then and so you are always playing catch up.
Do you ever think about the possibility of not getting admitted into any MFE program? What would you do with all the customized course choices that are then of limited use?
May as well just get a broad education, study what you enjoy most. Who knows, you may discover gardening is your passion.
Undergraduate education is meant for discovery a broad selection of career choice, not to specialize. You have plenty of time in grad school for that.

Undergraduate education is meant for discovery a broad selection of career choice, not to specialize. You have plenty of time in grad school for that !!!

 

[MikeUF]

Undergraduate education is meant for discovery a broad selection of career choice, not to specialize. You have plenty of time in grad school for that !!!

I understand that. I'm just trying to set myself up for the possibility of getting into a FE school. It is not the only option I am considering for Grad school.

 

[Connor]

Undergraduate education is meant for discovery a broad selection of career choice, not to specialize. You have plenty of time in grad school for that !!!

While I agree that undergrad is a time of discovery both personally and academically, I think there is a real danger of becoming limited in what options are available to you. For example, if you major in finance in undergrad because finance interests you but then in your senior year realize that quant finance is what you want to do, you are stuck because you lack the math and programming skills to pursue your interests.

I recommend studying broadly in undergrad (multiple majors and minors) and then specialize in grad school.

 

[Stefan Zota]

While I agree that undergrad is a time of discovery both personally and academically, I think there is a real danger of becoming limited in what options are available to you. For example, if you major in finance in undergrad because finance interests you but then in your senior year realize that quant finance is what you want to do, you are stuck because you lack the math and programming skills to pursue your interests.

I recommend studying broadly in undergrad (multiple majors and minors) and then specialize in grad school.

It's arguable when specialization should occur.

On one side, the U.S. education system offers a lot of freedom to students. Basically they can keep all their options open in undergrad. The risk is that without grad-school, the hard skills/technical strenght may lack after bachelors degree.

On the other side, the former Eastern European system offers limited freedom to students. Students go into classes with certain specialty starting with high-school. The undergrad defines the fields (e.g. student applies to Energetics Dept. or Computer Science Dept, no way to take classes outside the field).

I believe it depends on each person. If you found what you want in high-school, then start pursuing it. One thing is to realize that it's much harder to change direction when you are 30 or 40 than 20 ...

 

[Alexei]

On the other side, the former Eastern European system offers limited freedom to students. Students go into classes with certain specialty starting with high-school. The undergrad defines the fields (e.g. student applies to Energetics Dept. or Computer Science Dept, no way to take classes outside the field).

This is not true; I got admitted into the top Engineering school, the Electrical Power Engineering department and I studied Economics and Finance at the Business School.

 

[Stefan Zota]

This is not true; I got admitted into the top Engineering school, the Electrical Power Engineering department and I studied Economics and Finance at the Business School.

Now it may have changed. When I was an undergrad, and earlier, in your case you had to quite the first school and apply to the other one.

 

[Alexei]

Now it may have changed. When I was an undergrad, and earlier, in your case you had to quite the first school and apply to the other one.

It was a decade ago... however, the rules are not the same from country to country.